Lowest offensive impact to qualify for your top 25 all-time?

[ceiling raiser]

Among the top defenders all-time, the following guys seem like locks for top 25s:

Bill Russell
Tim Duncan
Hakeem Olajuwon
Kevin Garnett
David Robinson

Guys who with few exceptions are outside of top 50 all-time lists:

Ben Wallace
Dikembe Mutombo
Nate Thurmond
Rudy Gobert
Dwight Howard

Do we need to reevaluate one or both of these lists? Or do you feel there is an offensive threshold in order to place players at a given level?

[Lou Fan]

I think when you're calling guys like Hakeem low offensive impact and equating it to Ben Wallace you're stretching your logic.

[ceoofkobefans]

Bill Russell is the only player in my top 25 to never be a +1 offensive player

[jalengreen]

I'm not really sold on Russell being much of an impactful offensive player at all, so I don't think this is a matter of threshold.

[No-more-rings]

Russell is such an outlier, not even sure he should be the bar going forward. If you aren’t better on offense than Drob, it seems pretty unlikely you’ll crack the top 25. Outside of Russell, he would be my 2nd worst.

[Cavsfansince84]

I'm not really sold on Russell being much of an impactful offensive player at all, so I don't think this is a matter of threshold.

I think that's a bit of a misconception people have about Russell tbh. I think when you factor in both his off rebounding and passing ability out of the high post which also created better spacing in the paint and his pick setting he actually did have good offensive impact. Even in terms of scoring he was mostly positive up to 1963 with 2 seasons above 80 ts add.

[Cavsfansince84]

Russell is such an outlier, not even sure he should be the bar going forward. If you aren’t better on offense than Drob, it seems pretty unlikely you’ll crack the top 25. Outside of Russell, he would be my 2nd worst.

I think DRob is actually a pretty high bar offensively tbh. Maybe even better than KG in that regard and yes I know KG's passing is part of his offensive skill. There aren't too many players in nba history with as many seasons averaging over 25ppg with over 200 ts add than Robinson had even if he struggled in the playoffs to some degree.

[OhayoKD]

I'm not really sold on Russell being much of an impactful offensive player at all, so I don't think this is a matter of threshold.

I think that's a bit of a misconception people have about Russell tbh. I think when you factor in both his off rebounding and passing ability out of the high post which also created better spacing in the paint and his pick setting he actually did have good offensive impact. Even in terms of scoring he was mostly positive up to 1963 with 2 seasons above 80 ts add.

didn't the celtics offense improve after he left?

[Cavsfansince84]

didn't the celtics offense improve after he left?

In terms of ORtg it did but in terms of ppg it didn't. Part of that too though is that off rebounding doesn't improve ORtg that much but simply gives you more opportunities to score. Also, its taking Russell at age 35.

[OhayoKD]

didn't the celtics offense improve after he left?

In terms of ORtg it did but in terms of ppg it didn't. Part of that too though is that off rebounding doesn't improve ORtg that much but simply gives you more opportunities to score. Also, its taking Russell at age 35.

One thing i don't get is how the celtics had their most dominant postseason in 69 when the supporting cast was supposed to be bad and russell was about to retire.

[dribble1614]

yea basically a russell, pippen, garnett level type who likely can't be a #1 scoring option but still is too versatile and all around dominant defensively and at other phases of offense.

[Cavsfansince84]

didn't the celtics offense improve after he left?

In terms of ORtg it did but in terms of ppg it didn't. Part of that too though is that off rebounding doesn't improve ORtg that much but simply gives you more opportunities to score. Also, its taking Russell at age 35.

One thing i don't get is how the celtics had their most dominant postseason in 69 when the supporting cast was supposed to be bad and russell was about to retire.

Most dominant in what way? Because in 69 they went 12-6 and barely eeked out game 7 of the finals while in 61 & 64 they went 8-2.

[OhayoKD]

In terms of ORtg it did but in terms of ppg it didn't. Part of that too though is that off rebounding doesn't improve ORtg that much but simply gives you more opportunities to score. Also, its taking Russell at age 35.

One thing i don't get is how the celtics had their most dominant postseason in 69 when the supporting cast was supposed to be bad and russell was about to retire.

Most dominant in what way? Because in 69 they went 12-6 and barely eeked out game 7 of the finals while in 61 & 64 they went 8-2.

i misremembered 61 and 64 then. But it's still a more emphatic performance than 63, 62, ect which is wierd since you'd expect them to do their worst here since russell was at the end and his team was at it's weakest

[Cavsfansince84]

i misremembered 61 and 64 then. But it's still a more emphatic performance than 63, 62, ect which is wierd since you'd expect them to do their worst here since russell was at the end and his team was at it's weakest

While I see your point they were a dynasty that always teetered on being eliminated from 57-69. Most seasons they faced at least one game 5/7 but almost always won them.

[No-more-rings]

Russell is such an outlier, not even sure he should be the bar going forward. If you aren’t better on offense than Drob, it seems pretty unlikely you’ll crack the top 25. Outside of Russell, he would be my 2nd worst.

I think DRob is actually a pretty high bar offensively tbh. Maybe even better than KG in that regard and yes I know KG's passing is part of his offensive skill. There aren't too many players in nba history with as many seasons averaging over 25ppg with over 200 ts add than Robinson had even if he struggled in the playoffs to some degree.

I’m not convinced Drob’s offensive impact is higher than KG’s despite better scoring numbers.

[penbeast0]

Do you have a lowest defensive impact to qualify for your top 25 too? Nash, Magic, Bird, Dirk? I don't think it matters where your impact is, offense or defense. It's the overall impact on winning that counts and if that is ridiculously one-sided but you are just that good on that one side, so what?

[OhayoKD]

i misremembered 61 and 64 then. But it's still a more emphatic performance than 63, 62, ect which is wierd since you'd expect them to do their worst here since russell was at the end and his team was at it's weakest

While I see your point they were a dynasty that always teetered on being eliminated from 57-69. Most seasons they faced at least one game 5/7 but almost always won them.

did bill russell just throw playoff games to rest up or something? Based on the regular season dominance you'd be expecting them to sweep most of their opponents, right?

[Cavsfansince84]

I’m not convinced Drob’s offensive impact is higher than KG’s despite better scoring numbers.

I think it could be argued both ways(even depending on specific seasons) but my larger point is just that Robinson was a very high impact offensive player imo.

[Cavsfansince84]

did bill russell just throw playoff games to rest up or something? Based on the regular season dominance you'd be expecting them to sweep most of their opponents, right?

I doubt that being as competitive as he was but at the same time I don't think you can chalk it up to him necessarily either. I think the offensive players tended to be very inconsistent and they were also up against some very good teams. 8-11 team league means more talent per team in general.

[OhayoKD]

I’m not convinced Drob’s offensive impact is higher than KG’s despite better scoring numbers.

I think it could be argued both ways(even depending on specific seasons) but my larger point is just that Robinson was a very high impact offensive player imo.

didn't drob's offenses and defenses tend to severely underperofrm against decent-good offenses/defenses?

I feel like kg's offense was more playoff reselient. He was very good on both ends vs the lakers in 04 iirc, even without his 2nd best player