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Who is the better player overall? I know my answer curious of you alls?

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Unseld, but its closer than I thought. Great question.
With this chip, Dray finally breaks into my Top 100.
But if Dray wins another chip or two, then sure, why not, let's flip it.

We sure that Dray works out so well on a team without (essentially) the 2 greatest shooters, who both just happen to be a bit on the quiet side too?!
Great defender, check.
Excellent point forward, check.
Has got that Wild Crazed Rodman vibe, check.

Time Machine stuff is one of those things that makes me go hmmm.

Weighting the championships would lead one to conclude Dray - fair enough.

Wes: 13 years, 5 AS, 1 Chip, 11/14/4/1/1
Dray: 10 years, 4 AS, 4 Chip, 9/7/5/1/1

But would the analytics crowd really trade 2 points per game plus 7 rebounds per game just for one extra assist?

Ginoboleee wrote:Unseld, but its closer than I thought. Great question.
With this chip, Dray finally breaks into my Top 100.
But if Dray wins another chip or two, then sure, why not, let's flip it.

We sure that Dray works out so well on a team without (essentially) the 2 greatest shooters, who both just happen to be a bit on the quiet side too?!
Great defender, check.
Excellent point forward, check.
Has got that Wild Crazed Rodman vibe, check.

Time Machine stuff is one of those things that makes me go hmmm.

Weighting the championships would lead one to conclude Dray - fair enough.

Wes: 13 years, 5 AS, 1 Chip, 11/14/4/1/1
Dray: 10 years, 4 AS, 4 Chip, 9/7/5/1/1

But would the analytics crowd really trade 2 points per game plus 7 rebounds per game just for one extra assist?

Box scores aren’t really analytics lol

The thing with draymond is he’s hard to gauge, like I do think that on certain teams he’s more in the meh territory, like defensively on an undisciplined poorly coached team I think he doesn’t plug in the holes as well (as in not DPOY type) and offensively he can look really bad

But in the situation he’s in he’s been the best
defender, and even more so the best playoff defender of the smallball era, and offensively he’s been good because he fits so well with Curry

but draymond is genuinely a historically great defender in the playoffs, probably severely underrated in that regard, that’s elite at things he needs to be in his role offensively, in order for the Warriors offense (as in their main action of Curry and dray pick and roll) to work.

Better player is hard though, because for example, it’s like the peak cousins vs peak draymond question.

Personally I take cousins really easily, but im sure a lot of people here take draymond and I’m can see the perspective and it’s completely valid even though I don’t necessarily agree at all

Unseld is the better center but Draymond is the better forward.

I take Draymond on peak, prime, career, offense, defense, whatever the comparison may be.

Jaivl wrote:I take Draymond on peak, prime, career, offense, defense, whatever the comparison may be.

I see no world where Draymond is better than Unseld career wise or skill wise in practically any phase of the game.

Unseld has a regular season MVP, Rookie of the Year(same year as MVP insane), Finals MVP and is a Top 75 player of all time. None of which Draymond has accomplished. Unseld by far had the better career. Draymond has more championships and although he was key member he wasn't the driving force he's not Unseld's equal career wise.

Neither were great scorers historically speaking both focused on doing the little things on the court but Unseld definitely was the better scorer and had the ability to score if utilized especially early in his career. Unseld is also far and away a better rebounder as well. Unseld's carer average is 14 boards to Draymond's 6. Passing wise I give Draymond the edge but Unseld is no slouch in this department either he was a phenomenal playmaker from the high post and averaged 5 assist in 76 which is really good for a center, not to mention he's greatest outlet passer of all time so again Draymond has the edge but not significantly.
Lastly defensively again I'd give Draymond the slight edge both were great players defensively. Draymond is more versatile and more decorated on that side of the ball but Unseld is a better post defender. Again slight edge to Draymond. That's 2-2 skill wise and even the categories Draymond is better its not by much I'd take the better scorer and rebounder who is also an above average passer and defender at his position.

I think Unseld is pretty handily the better player



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prolific passer wrote:Unseld is the better center but Draymond is the better forward.

Kind of a cop out answer but I could roll with it. Your not wrong I guess

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I think Draymond has had more impact, but he is in literally the perfect situation for his skillset so hard to really guage in a more general sense.

capfan33 wrote:I think Draymond has had more impact, but he is in literally the perfect situation for his skillset so hard to really guage in a more general sense.

I think that's a bit of recency bias we're talking about someone in Unseld who won Rookie of the Year and MVP in the same year the only player to do that besides Wilt, who's also a Top 75 player, generally regarded as the greatest and synonymous with the outlet pass , and the greatest player in Washington Wizard/Bullet history that's a hell of a impact

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capfan33 wrote:I think Draymond has had more impact, but he is in literally the perfect situation for his skillset so hard to really guage in a more general sense.

What is the reasoning behind this view?

I think people underrate Unseld a little bit here. He wasn't the real MVP level player at any point of his career, but he had immense impact on Bullets franchise.

Unseld's first 5 years in the league were great. 14 17 4apg on 50% shooting. He was only 6'6" to 6'7" but his wide body made it hard for bigger centers to get around him or move him. He also had the meanest screens in nba history they say because of that wide body.

Stalwart wrote:

capfan33 wrote:I think Draymond has had more impact, but he is in literally the perfect situation for his skillset so hard to really guage in a more general sense.

What is the reasoning behind this view?

His impact data is off the charts, I think his 2016 year is even 1st by certain metrics. But as I said, there's very strong collinearity between him and Curry and so you can't take that data at face value (he obviously wasn't the best player in 2016). As such, trying to figure out how good he would be in a more normal situation is hard to figure.

TT8198 wrote:

capfan33 wrote:I think Draymond has had more impact, but he is in literally the perfect situation for his skillset so hard to really guage in a more general sense.

I think that's a bit of recency bias we're talking about someone in Unseld who won Rookie of the Year and MVP in the same year the only player to do that besides Wilt, who's also a Top 75 player, generally regarded as the greatest and synonymous with the outlet pass , and the greatest player in Washington Wizard/Bullet history that's a hell of a impact

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Him winning MVP is a bit dubious to say the least, but Unseld was an excellent player who definitely gets underrated much in the same way Draymond does because he's not a great scorer. I'm open to being convinced either way.

Yeah, I mean, rookie Unseld being the worst MVP in league history because... reasons, I guess (the Russell archetype?), barely means anything.

Offense I could buy, but I do not think he's close defensively to Draymond either.

Jaivl wrote:Yeah, I mean, rookie Unseld being the worst MVP in league history because... reasons, I guess (the Russell archetype?), barely means anything.

Offense I could buy, but I do not think he's close defensively to Draymond either.

Unseld most definitely a better post defender without question. Again Draymond is more versatile and is perfect for the modern NBA with less post ups and post offense in general but you wouldn't want Draymond trying to guard a Chamberlain or Kareem that's not his strength , Unseld is better suited there. And im sorry there is no way to poo poo someone winning ROY and MVP in the same year that's a crazy accomplishment and hasn't been done since and that's two awards Draymond doesn't have again Draymond is not Unseld's equal career wise.

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capfan33 wrote:

TT8198 wrote:

capfan33 wrote:I think Draymond has had more impact, but he is in literally the perfect situation for his skillset so hard to really guage in a more general sense.

I think that's a bit of recency bias we're talking about someone in Unseld who won Rookie of the Year and MVP in the same year the only player to do that besides Wilt, who's also a Top 75 player, generally regarded as the greatest and synonymous with the outlet pass , and the greatest player in Washington Wizard/Bullet history that's a hell of a impact

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Him winning MVP is a bit dubious to say the least, but Unseld was an excellent player who definitely gets underrated much in the same way Draymond does because he's not a great scorer. I'm open to being convinced either way.

There isn't anything dubious about it all. Your just looking at stats without context the thing yall praise Draymond you guys are somehow lamenting Unseld for in his MVP season. In Unseld's rookie year he made an immediate impact boosting the Bullets to a 57-25 record and 1st place in the East which is a 21 game increase from the previous season. Again all that as a rookie, more than deserving of MVP

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Draymond is a better defender and playmaker. I don't think either was a great shooter. Draymond has a 90 foot game, Unseld not so much. Unseld was a better rebounder and outlet passer, but I don't think that bridges the rest. Have to remember these guys played nearly a half century apart.

TT8198 wrote:

capfan33 wrote:

TT8198 wrote:I think that's a bit of recency bias we're talking about someone in Unseld who won Rookie of the Year and MVP in the same year the only player to do that besides Wilt, who's also a Top 75 player, generally regarded as the greatest and synonymous with the outlet pass , and the greatest player in Washington Wizard/Bullet history that's a hell of a impact

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Him winning MVP is a bit dubious to say the least, but Unseld was an excellent player who definitely gets underrated much in the same way Draymond does because he's not a great scorer. I'm open to being convinced either way.

There isn't anything dubious about it all. Your just looking at stats without context the thing yall praise Draymond you guys are somehow lamenting Unseld for in his MVP season. In Unseld's rookie year he made an immediate impact boosting the Bullets to a 57-25 record and 1st place in the East which is a 21 game increase from the previous season. Again all that as a rookie, more than deserving of MVP

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The league paid Unseld back the next year as he didn't make the all star team despite averaging 16 and 17 on a 50 win team.

capfan33 wrote:

Stalwart wrote:

capfan33 wrote:I think Draymond has had more impact, but he is in literally the perfect situation for his skillset so hard to really guage in a more general sense.

What is the reasoning behind this view?

His impact data is off the charts, I think his 2016 year is even 1st by certain metrics. But as I said, there's very strong collinearity between him and Curry and so you can't take that data at face value (he obviously wasn't the best player in 2016). As such, trying to figure out how good he would be in a more normal situation is hard to figure.

As you stated alot of Draymond's impact is directly correlated with Curry. When Curry was out the Warroirs was a lottery team so let's not overstate Draymond's value. Unseld singularly significantly impacted his team from his rookie year , 21 game increase upon his arrival and the Bullets never missed the playoffs Unseld's whole career until his final season , that's impact.

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