A reasonable take: Scalabrine on Shaq and Kobe

[euroleague]

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Finally, a take I agree with.

[Stalwart]

Horrible take. Iverson would not have won with Shaq. No other SG or wing player wins 3 titles with Shaq.

[ChartFiction]

Awful take.

Iversons 76ers got to the finals off the strength of defense. Completely undermining what Mutumbo brought to that team.

On his other point of Kobe's efficiency benefiting from Shaq's presence, Kobe always was an efficient scorer relative to the league while taking the toughest shots. Him winning was not an accident. This didn't change without Shaq. His volume and TS actually went up significantly in the years without Shaq and Kobe carried a 7th, 8th, and 7th ranked offense completely on his own in the 3 years following Shaq's departure. What was missing was defense.

Looking at the careers of the top volume shooting guards in the league during that time. Some discernment would need to be made for career drops offs but the general trends remain.

Kobe: +1.9% League Average. League average TS was 53.1%. His TS% was 55%.
Wade: +1.6% League Average. League average TS was 53.9%. His TS% was 55.5%.
Carter: +0.4% League Average. League average TS was 53.2%. His TS% was 53.6%.
McGrady: -0.8% League Average. League average TS was 52.7%. His TS% was 51.9%.
Iverson: -0.9% League Average. League average TS was 52.8%. His TS% was 51.9%

Kobe's TS% in 2022 would be even higher with modern spacing and shooters. It would be what he had in 05, 06, and 07 where he was averaging 56-58% TS but on steroids.

[Jaivl]

I disagree with the Iverson example and with Kobe's ranking (15 is alright, 20-25 feels injustifiably low), but there's a good deal of insight there on how context molds our narratives, the differenciation between Kobe's GOAT-tier array of shots vs Kobe's not GOAT-tier value...

[Dutchball97]

Horrible take. Iverson would not have won with Shaq. No other SG or wing player wins 3 titles with Shaq.

What makes you say that though? Looking at the level of play in the 00-02 period I think there are a bunch of guys who probably could've completed the threepeat in Kobe's place. While it would require a closer look I'm not sure what makes you say the likes of Reggie, Ray, T-Mac and Carter definitely wouldn't have been able to win 3 straight next to Shaq.

[HeartBreakKid]

Hardly any teams had two star players back then. Shaq would have won titles playing with a few guys.

[Purch]

Horrible take. Iverson would not have won with Shaq. No other SG or wing player wins 3 titles with Shaq.

I have no reason to belive D-wade wasnt capable of winning 3 titles with Shaq. He won one with a Shaq that wasn't anywhere near peak Shaq.

[Black Feet]

Horrible take. Iverson would not have won with Shaq. No other SG or wing player wins 3 titles with Shaq.

I have no reason to belive D-wade wasnt capable of winning 3 titles with Shaq. He won one with a Shaq that wasn't anywhere near peak Shaq.

Kobe went to 3 finals in a row with Pau, i have no reason to believe he would not have easily 3peated with Lebron/Bosh.

[G35]

Hardly any teams had two star players back then. Shaq would have won titles playing with a few guys.

Shaq and Penny
Jordan and Pippen
Stockton and Malone
Duncan and Robinson
Mourning, Mashburn, Hardaway
Payton and Kemp
Webber, Divac, Bibby
Dirk and Nash

Kobe was not a star in 1997-2000. He was coming off the bench those years......

[Purch]

Horrible take. Iverson would not have won with Shaq. No other SG or wing player wins 3 titles with Shaq.

I have no reason to belive D-wade wasnt capable of winning 3 titles with Shaq. He won one with a Shaq that wasn't anywhere near peak Shaq.

Kobe went to 3 finals in a row with Pau, i have no reason to believe he would not have easily 3peated with Lebron/Bosh.

He might have, though I don't think his game would fit next to Lebron's as well as D-Wade's ultimately did. Though this thread isn't really about putting Kobe on the Heat . Or stating the Wade is better than Kobe or vise versa.

The statement was made that no other sg could win 3 titles with Shaq. I pointed out that a 3rd year Wade already won a title with a post-prime Shaq as his second option, so I have no reason to belive that they wouldn't be able to win 3 with the prime version of Shaq.

What exactly was Kobe doing from 00-02 that you think a young D-Wade wasn't capable of doing?

[Stalwart]

Horrible take. Iverson would not have won with Shaq. No other SG or wing player wins 3 titles with Shaq.

What makes you say that though? Looking at the level of play in the 00-02 period I think there are a bunch of guys who probably could've completed the threepeat in Kobe's place. While it would require a closer look I'm not sure what makes you say the likes of Reggie, Ray, T-Mac and Carter definitely wouldn't have been able to win 3 straight next to Shaq.

The only ones with the ability to pull it off would be TMac and Wade both of which would struggle to make 3 straight finals runs without injury. Why do you assume any ol all star SG could be so successful with Shaq? Kobe did more than just score. He could run the offense or play off ball. He did a lot of catch and shoot in the Lakers offense while also creating ISO's at the right time. He was also an all league defender. He was also clutch. He also facilitated. He also played in a way that allowed Shaq to maximize his dominance. He managed to have MVP level production while also facilitating Shaq's dominance. Even after doing all of that he and Shaq still almost lost...twice.

I don't see Carter, Iverson, Ray Allen, Reggie, Manu, or anyone else doing all those things at Kobe's level for 3 years straight. 3peats are extremely hard to do and not something you just replicate willy nilly.

[Matt15]

The Lakers nearly lost 2 years during the Kobe/Shaq 3-Peat as it is. I don't see how they would have the same success if you replaced Kobe with an inferior player like Iverson. That's like saying replace Shaq with Prime Dwight and they still 3-peat. I agree with Stalwart that Wade and T-Mac have the talent to pull it off the problem is they're not as durable so I don't think their bodies would hold up for 3 consecutive championship runs like Kobe did.

[tsherkin]

Kobe's TS% in 2022 would be even higher with modern spacing and shooters. It would be what he had in 05, 06, and 07 where he was averaging 56-58% TS but on steroids.

It would be interesting to see. Porting him in as a 58% TS player, he becomes a +1.4% TS player. So that direct port isnt favorable to him.

We'd have to consider maybe an improvement in his finishing at the rim, and/or draw rate. Spacing has changed noticeably. And of course there is always the question of if ported forward, would he have developed better 3pt proficiency in volume. Unlikely without a change in shot selection, but possible.

I think more than his TS%, we might have seen a higher rate of assist production, though.

[carlquincy]

Repeat is tough, 3peat is tougher.

Dynasty Spurs can't repeat. Dynasty Warriors and Heat can't 3peat.

Now we are supposed to believe that swapping out a key cog of a 3peat team, and able to achieve the same success?

[Masigond]

The Iverson take was a stretch way too far. AI simply neither had the shooting skills nor the understanding of teamplay in the offense or what a good shot is to benefit enough from the spacing provided by a dominant guy like Shaq. On good days he could kill an opponent team by himself as he couldn't be stopped from taking shots (and when they went in, he really could score a lot), but more often than not his scoring efficiency was too low to make his team win. Therefore the only capable team ever built around him was a great defensive team to lower the opponents' efficiency even more. And that wasn't enough as they were crushed by the Lakers in the Finals, and it wasn't even close in games 2-5 (I don't care about game 1 - that was one occasion when AI was shooting well enough in OT while the Lakers had too many turnovers. And Kobe missed way too many shots from all over the court for the whole game).

Actually what frustrated me a lot with Kobe was that he didn't have great instincts for teamplay himself either, and that he chose to take unnecessary difficult shots too often when he should have concentrated on better scoring opportunities (or passing the ball...).

Scalabrine is right in emphasizing Shaq's impact during the title run. Opponents indeed cared more about him than about anyone else, because his points per possession were absurd. You had to try to prevent him from getting the ball and hope that his teammates had a bad shooting day. I think that Kobe profited from that, too, and for sure he wasn't the player yet to carry his team's offense for tough series in 2000. In that year I think a couple of players would have been able to replace him for arguably the same result: Carter and Hill (assuming he wouldn't break his foot) for sure. Maybe even Ray Allen. In the other two years? Maybe McGrady and Pierce, but as already mentioned the Lakers would have had a harder time to threepeat because these players were not as durable and defensively not as good as the player that Kobe became in 2001. Still I'd guess that Shaq was good enough that at least two titles would have been possible with other players than Kobe, and Shaq's getting quite underrated due to the reputation he got in laters years. When he clearly wasn't fit, wasn't motivated enough and this "healing on company time" is hard to swallow. Still in the early 2000s he was the best player in the league, only somewhat rivaled by Duncan (and I think Shaq should have been given the 2001 MVP, too. We've seen that it wasn't AI carrying the Sixers to 56 wins but his team's defense. AI had quite similar seasons individually when the Sixers barely reached the playoffs...)

[rand]

Horrible take. Iverson would not have won with Shaq. No other SG or wing player wins 3 titles with Shaq.

Shaq probably 3peats from 2000-2002 with Ray Allen. Maybe VC too, though they might lose in 2000.

[NO-KG-AI]

Maybe they could, but they'd definitely be a worse team in the last two titles with Iverson, and considering that they could have lost some series in there even with Kobe, they probably get knocked off somewhere in there, and most likely both years.

In the first title,it's both the very best version of Shaq, and the very worst version of championship Kobe. That one year is the most replaceable. Just swapping him out and getting the full 3 peat is a tough sell. Kobe was just a better and more versatile weapon on both ends in 01 and 02 than AI.

[NO-KG-AI]

The problem people have with evaluating titles is that they consider all title teams as having achieved exactly the same thing. A team could be substantially worse, but still win the title and they get just as much credit for being just as good a team, even when they clearly aren't.

You can say that in the end all that matters is winning it, and to fans, it does, but in terms of evaluating who is a better player or better team, there are differences that should be discussed.

Whether they end up winning 0 or 3 titles with AI in Kobe's place, it's hard to believe they'd be as good or better than they were with Kobe.

[Stalwart]

Horrible take. Iverson would not have won with Shaq. No other SG or wing player wins 3 titles with Shaq.

Shaq probably 3peats from 2000-2002 with Ray Allen. Maybe VC too, though they might lose in 2000.

I think Shaq could win one or two with Ray Allen but not three. I wouldn't believe Shaq & Kobe could 3peat if I didn't see it happen.

[Statlanta]

Kobe came up to a level that Shaq just couldn’t get to with other guards. Eddie Jones was a solid SG, comparable or even better than the worst seasons of the comparison(Pierce/Iverson/McGrady/Carter/Allen) and he couldn’t get it done because he wasn’t dynamic enough.