2022-23 NBA Season Discussion

[eminence]

Depending a bit on how you define 'generation' I do think Harden has a strong argument for #2 in his generation (to Curry) with KD also worth considering for that slot. Maybe Kawhi/Dame/AD among the slightly younger group can pull it together and make a run at it, but I'd say highly unlikely as of now.

Which is a pretty dang impressive feat in a competitive era.

I kind of feel like Giannis is in "his generation" based on those MVP races, obviously it's a little arbitrary though, depending on how much Harden bounces back Giannis prime could extend way beyond Harden's making it seem like they're less in the same generation

There is a 5 year age gap between giannis and harden. That is a bit too much for me to group as the same generation just because harden peak overlapped with the start of giannis prime

If harden can be in the same generstion as a guy 5 years younger he also can be in the same generation as a guy five years older (lebron) and at that point it just would feel too much to group lebron and giannis as extremes of a single generation when there is a 10 year gap

An inexact science to be sure.

I'd say as of now (say they both retire tomorrow) I'd put Giannis/Harden in the same generation, but I'd guess I wind up with them in different generations.

Anywho, regardless, I don't think Giannis has caught him yet either, though he's clearly next in line.

[Statlanta]

I'm beginning to appreciate James Harden's attitude, rationality, and on-court play much more in the wake of various dramas caused by star players.

Harden enters the league as a high pick on a rising young team. Normally, a guy like him is given the reigns early on, but OKC already has two high-end young perimeter talents, so James starts just seven of his first 226 games. In his third season, he is correctly identified as a beast of a player and comes into his own forming to this day the most synergistic, dangerous offensive perimeter trio in NBA history. And Harden is the primary decision-maker when they are on the court together - and Westbrook and Durant don't object. Impressive stuff.

He was a 22 y/o durable kid with All-NBA level talent who just made the Finals. But his GM did not want to pay him. So he gets traded and locks up his $80 million. Next five seasons he plays in 395 out of a possible 410 games (96.3% availability in the "DNP-Maintenance" era) and averages 27/8/6 on good but not great teams with good but not great supporting casts.

Finally he gets to play with a legit All-NBA level talent in HOU but a guy who controls the ball a lot. Despite this being a possible recipe for on-court friction and diminishing returns, HOU hits 8 SRS and gives a disgusting superteam all it could handle. If only Chris Paul's physiology didn't break in 50% of his playoff runs...

Paul, despite not having actually accomplished anything of consequence compared to his costars (this could extend back to LA with Blake), is quite difficult to deal with as a coworker because he nitpicks and is harsh. So HOU/Harden bring in a former compadre in RW. I put this squarely on Chris Paul for not having the wherewithal to know whose team it is and continuing to behave like he did in LA.

Harden at that point had never shown an inability to work with others. Harden pressing for a trade that still in his mind allows HOU to compete is rational (and good for HOU as well). He had positive professional history with Westbrook. Last time they shared a team bus, they also shared an NBA Finals floor.

Harden and RW have a decent but disappointing 2020 season. Westbrook doesn't like the "unprofessional" culture and tone set by Harden, and Harden sees the title window closing and management diminishing. They both want out. Harden requests a trade but still plays with HOU. Harden requests a trade to a team with high-end talent that could conceivably compete and gets his wish.

Obviously when he gets there, he sees the insanity (plus injuries) and leaves to greener pastures playing with a true superstar in Embiid. Now he's presumably taking less money to improve the team with a handshake deal that down the line he will be taken care of. So long as he and Philly management weren't idiots who put this down in text messages, this is a smart play on both sides. The NBA's investigation is smoke and mirrors to appear like they care about this stuff.

What can we ding him for?

1. HOU's team culture (as per RW)
2. Injuries the past two seasons

I believe Westbrook's concerns and believe they possibly caused issue number 2. After a decade of outstanding durability, Harden's games missed is concerning. At the same time...30 y/o millionaire who wants to party and have fun and enjoy life and cuisine, while not seeing any negative results from the past decade of doing what he was doing...who wouldn't hit up the world-renowned Texas strip clubs? 38,000 minutes into his career though and we're seeing lingering injury. Maybe his up-front financial "sacrifice" signals he is serious about taking one last shot at contending and adds a bit more discipline as well.

Only other thing I would ever personally ding him for is allowing that garbage Moreyball strategy to stunt his progress. Moreyball is annoying but fine for role players, not superstars. Harden didn't work on his post game enough.

He's not a perfect superstar or franchise player, but relatively speaking, he is a dream. He personally gets along with everybody, even other superstars, of which he has been willing to play with many. Aside from the past two seasons, he's been available and a minutes eater. Obviously he's very talented on the court. He is willing to play hurt and compete.

IIRC, he even makes good investments off the court (Body Armor). Big contract with Adidas. Good marketing gimmick with the beard. Never been in trouble with the law.

Removing Giannis, Luka, and Jokic for lack of longevity, who else since 2010 would you entrust your franchise with assuming you believe you are a competent GM? I think only LBJ and GSW at this point. Harden is available, marketable, rational, and talented.

I can’t give Harden too much credit for being a sixth man to two starters because he was the last marquee pick added to the team. Also he’s come to the season out of shape multiple times despite his durability, 2016 and 2021. I don’t think he is a dream especially since he’s asked out of two situations, one of which he had as the most powerful person in the organization.

[penbeast0]

Defensive awareness and effort are a ding too.

[LukaTheGOAT]

Watch on YouTube

[falcolombardi]

Watch on YouTube

i am intrigued if this will finally be the time where he argues positively for wilt compared to other bigs

[Peregrine01]

Watch on YouTube

I think we've become inured to guys flailing and getting rewarded for it but watching these videos made you realize again how ridiculous the flailing from CP3, Harden, et al are all over again.

[CharityStripe34]

An inexact science to be sure.

I'd say as of now (say they both retire tomorrow) I'd put Giannis/Harden in the same generation, but I'd guess I wind up with them in different generations.

Anywho, regardless, I don't think Giannis has caught him yet either, though he's clearly next in line.

Gianni will probably go down in the books with his own generation with guys like Davis/Embiid/Jokic/Luka even though he became a superstar alongside the likes of LeBron/Harden/Durant/Davis/Curry/Kawhi. Sort of like in-between.

But, yea, generational groups of stars are hard to define since players peak at different times and ages regardless of when they may have been drafted.

[falcolombardi]

I prefer to define generations based on age as it means a bunch of guys whose primes mostly overlap

I usually use 3~ year windows for it, start, middle and end of a decade

If a player is drafted in the modern era he usually is 19~ when drafted which means he usually is a few years away of starting his prime years in his early 20's and his prime will usually extend to his early 30's

Of course some players are late bloomers, age out badly or are starts even earlier or later than the usual expected 23-32~ window

Late 10's draft: Luka/trae/zion when healthy are guys who are now at the start of their prime who we can expect to remain relevant if healthty for the full 2020's

Mid 10's draft: Giannis/jokic/embiid/davis are guys drafted in the middle of the 10's whose prime we can expect to last until the mid 20's (think 2026 when they will be over 30) and they are likely to slow down when the 20's end and they are entering their mid 30's. Their age makes them the usual suspect for dominatint mvp races as they are in the usual range for it

Early 10's/late 00's guys: harden/kawhi/lillard and other this are the guys expected to peak in the late 10's/early 20's and start leaving their prime by the mid 20's

This means that when the giannis generation is in the hearth of their prime(late 20's), the kawhi generation is at the end of it(early 30's), the curry generation is supposed to be out of it if slowly (mid 30's) and the lebron generation is supposed to be done for (late 30's) while the luka generation is just starting their primes (early to mid 20's)

[falcolombardi]

Colour me surprised ben video about pro offense rules showing a wilt play where he is affectrd by tough reffing

May be unironically the first time i see ben giving wilt credit

[tsherkin]

Colour me surprised ben video about pro offense rules showing a wilt play where he is affectrd by tough reffing

May be unironically the first time i see ben giving wilt credit

I suspect that has much to do with the common narratives around Wilt and Ben responding to them, disproving them and so forth more than any personal agenda against Wilt. People cling to a lot of old ideas, even though they are thoroughly debunked, because they are comfortable, so they end up becoming regular talking points.

[falcolombardi]

Colour me surprised ben video about pro offense rules showing a wilt play where he is affectrd by tough reffing

May be unironically the first time i see ben giving wilt credit

I suspect that has much to do with the common narratives around Wilt and Ben responding to them, disproving them and so forth more than any personal agenda against Wilt. People cling to a lot of old ideas, even though they are thoroughly debunked, because they are comfortable, so they end up becoming regular talking points.

I get that but in ben case he uses wilt so consistently that it starts to feel odd

I know everyone has biases, me included, but ben and wilt "jumps out" imo

The example i always remember is how his wilt analysis article mentions his high minutes only to diminish them "he only could play so much cause he didnt move off ball in offense nor leave the paint in defense much"

But then he writes his russel article and instead says "russel usually didnt leave the paint but this was a strategic trade off to save energy for how many minutes he played!"

He takes the same two thinghs bout wilt and russel (they usually dont leave the paint to defend spot up shooters, they both play a lot of minutes) and puts them in much different light/tone. He diminishes wilt high minutes while using russel high minutes to diminish other flaws

I dont want to say ben has an anti wilt hate agenda, i like ben, but he comes across as biased against wilt imo

Specially as he rarely acnowledges extwnuating circunstances like when he criticizes him for not playing like shaq but never mentions that offense initiating contact the way shaq did was not reffed the same back then

Or that he played much more minutes than shaq in a much faster pace (more running) era so he had less energy left to move off ball in offense than shaq

[tsherkin]

The example i always remember is how his wilt analysis article mentions his high minutes only to diminish them "he only could play so much cause he didnt move off ball in offense nor leave the paint in defense much"

Yeah but that particular gem isn't unique to him. It's a remark about bigs in that era in general, and how it was a much more linear game for them in a lot of cases. Wilt's cardio was impressive, but he was known for taking off possessions and all that stuff even then.

But then he writes his russel article and instead says "russel usually didnt leave the paint but this was a strategic trade off to save energy for how many minutes he played!"

Yeah but I think there's a shade different tone when the outcome isn't the same. Russell's teams were the greatest defense in league history, wild outliers compared to all their peers. Obviously, what he was doing wasn't costing his team. Maybe you're right, I"m just looking at it in terms of effect on team, right?

[parsnips33]

Spurs apparently trying to break the regular season attendance record by hosting Warriors at the Alamodome

Greatest show on Earth

[70sFan]

Great video from Ben, I hope it will help people understanding how massive the difference in officiating is between the first vs last 20 years of the league existance.

[70sFan]

Watch on YouTube

i am intrigued if this will finally be the time where he argues positively for wilt compared to other bigs

Well, he showed one clip (from my collection), but he didn't spend much time on that point.

Still, can't criticize him, he made a great job overall.

[LukaTheGOAT]

The example i always remember is how his wilt analysis article mentions his high minutes only to diminish them "he only could play so much cause he didnt move off ball in offense nor leave the paint in defense much"

Yeah but that particular gem isn't unique to him. It's a remark about bigs in that era in general, and how it was a much more linear game for them in a lot of cases. Wilt's cardio was impressive, but he was known for taking off possessions and all that stuff even then.

But then he writes his russel article and instead says "russel usually didnt leave the paint but this was a strategic trade off to save energy for how many minutes he played!"

Yeah but I think there's a shade different tone when the outcome isn't the same. Russell's teams were the greatest defense in league history, wild outliers compared to all their peers. Obviously, what he was doing wasn't costing his team. Maybe you're right, I"m just looking at it in terms of effect on team, right?

Ben Taylor on Bill Russell

"These were modern, efficiency-crushing actions, similar to what Kevin Garnett excelled at decades later. However, without a 3-point line to worry about, Russell was content to let marginal shooters fire away from midrange. If he had a defensive blemish, it was resting off these players too frequently, waiting for them to make one or two jumpers before extending his coverage."

Seems like he acknowledges a problem and his rest was more analytical than actual lack of motor.

[tsherkin]

Ben Taylor on Bill Russell

"These were modern, efficiency-crushing actions, similar to what Kevin Garnett excelled at decades later. However, without a 3-point line to worry about, Russell was content to let marginal shooters fire away from midrange. If he had a defensive blemish, it was resting off these players too frequently, waiting for them to make one or two jumpers before extending his coverage."

Seems like he acknowledges a problem and his rest was more analytical than actual lack of motor.

Makes sense to me. Why give up a 60-70% shot when you can give up a 40% shot and still have a decent chance at the defensive board, right?

[HeartBreakKid]

Harden is half a decade older than Giannis. That's an incredibly long time in basketball. If they had both gone through the US amateur ranks they wouldn't have played in college at the same time if James played 4 years.

They're different generations. Michael Jordan and Magic Johnson are closer in age than Giannis and Harden are.

Not even taking into account Giannis was incredibly young and raw for his draft class.

[falcolombardi]

Giannis is in the same generation as embiid and jokic

Harden is in the same generation as kawhi and curry

Luka is in the same generation as zion, morant and trae

Wenbayama will be in the same generation as holgrem and evan mobley

Kawhi was in the same generation as lillard and davis

[tsherkin]

They're different generations. Michael Jordan and Magic Johnson are closer in age than Giannis and Harden are.

That's being a tad on point, though, isn't it?

Magic was born in 59, Jordan in 63. Giannis in 94, Harden in 89. A one-year difference in age gap isn't really that meaningful.