I'm somewhat neutral to Bird(have him at 9th all time) and I put 2010 LeBron so low just because I think the whole team's chemistry fell apart at the end and LeBron deserves some of the blame. Overall I think LeBron's athleticism and defense coupled with Bird's body not aging well is a huge disadvantage for him and he barely made use of his biggest adv(3 pt shooting) until 86. LeBron also has by and large much more dominant ps runs.
Re: Top 12 seasons between Larry Bird and LeBron James
Posted: Wed Jul 6, 2022 2:26 am
by Ginoboleee
Nothing to see here, just transparent objective criteria, you know, science stuff.
Spoiler:
Step 1: Drop all seasons with PER less than 24. That gives me 6 candidate-seasons for Bird, and an incredible 18 for James. Now I have a nice big pool of peak seasons to further research.
Step 2: Drop all seasons with MVP vote rank of 4th or worse. The 6 Bird candidate-seasons from above all stay, while now James has ONLY 11 candidate-seasons left in the pool.
Step 3: Drop any season in which during a Finals, one or more of these things happened: (a) even though it was NOT their first finals appearance, the star was inexplicably and consistently dazed, lethargic, and generally disassociated from their normal levels of play, (b) the star's team was either Swept OR Gentleman Swept by a very old team, or (c) the star's team won a title in unprecedented artificial empty pristine conditions, where many teams did not want to stay or compete, and somehow the home team was the only one to show much spirit other than the star's winning team. Hmm, not sure how those might apply, let's see, oh hey, what do you know, bing-bang-and-bongo - imagine the odds! So, let's see, the 6 Bird candidate-seasons from above all stay, while now James has ONLY 8 candidate-seasons left in the pool.
Step 4: Drop any season with RS TOV% over 14 and/or RS WS under 12. The Bird seasons stay again, and now James is down to 6 of his own as well.
Weird how some of these steps are impacting only one player. Stats and analytics and research can be a bit strange sometimes, yeah? But so insightful, so powerful, objective, so clean, so true, am I right?
Step 5: Now that we have 12 seasons in total, we shall for the final step simply rank all 12 by RS USG%, with the lower RS USG% being preferred. Why? Oh, I think you know why. I am sure there are lots of good reasons to prefer excellent seasons with lower USG%, yes? It is still a team game after all, at least I thought it was.
Hey, let's look at the results now, shall we? So much science, so much deep inquiry, into what was previously clouded by faulty memory, false narratives, and biased preferences - no more such irrationality I say! Be gone!
And don't worry, I won't invoke a Special Eras Adjustment, since that is so controversial anyways. We will just assume that all 12 of these excellent seasons are perfectly comparable after meeting all previous steps. Let's see how it all shakes out!
1. Bird 1982-83 2. Bird 1983-84 3. Bird 1986-87 4. Bird 1985-86 5. Bird 1984-85 6. Bird 1987-88 7. James 2012-13 8. James 2015-16 9. James 2011-12 10. James 2009-10 11. James 2005-06 12. James 2008-09
Re: Top 12 seasons between Larry Bird and LeBron James
I'm somewhat neutral to Bird(have him at 9 all time) and I put 10 LeBron so low just because I think the whole team's chemistry fell apart at the end and LeBron deserves some of the blame. Overall I think LeBron's athleticism and defense coupled with Bird's body not aging well is a huge disadvantage for him and he barely made use of his biggest adv(3 pt shooting) until 86.
I'd say really only the 2012, 2013 you can say really are above 1986. Bird won league, finals mvp and had the best record and one of the greatest teams of all time. And since it said seasons we gotta consider those things. No way was Lebron 2016/2017 above Bird 1986 especially once you consider the MVP voting.
Re: Top 12 seasons between Larry Bird and LeBron James
Posted: Wed Jul 6, 2022 2:53 am
by RCM88x
I'd probably rank 09, 12, 13, 14, 16, 17, 18, 20 Lebron above '86 and '87 Bird, then '10 Lebron, probably slide '84 Bird in above the rest of Lebron's seasons.
Re: Top 12 seasons between Larry Bird and LeBron James
Posted: Wed Jul 6, 2022 2:58 am
by Cavsfansince84
JordansBulls wrote:I'd say really only the 2012, 2013 you can say really are above 1986. Bird won league, finals mvp and had the best record and one of the greatest teams of all time. And since it said seasons we gotta consider those things. No way was Lebron 2016/2017 above Bird 1986 especially once you consider the MVP voting.
I think you are sort of attempting to impose the way you would go about ranking these seasons on others here tbh. I think its entirely subjective how much we want accolades/mvp voting or post season success to weigh into the process. Having said that I do take post season play into it a lot. At the end of the day LeBron in most of prime years is just a much more complete player imo and his better post seasons all are in another tier to Bird outside of 84 & 86.
Re: Top 12 seasons between Larry Bird and LeBron James
Posted: Wed Jul 6, 2022 3:06 am
by falcolombardi
Temptatively sonethingh like this i guess
2009 2012 2013
1986 1984 2016 2017
1981 2014 1985 2018 2020 1987 2010
Re: Top 12 seasons between Larry Bird and LeBron James
Posted: Wed Jul 6, 2022 3:16 am
by No-more-rings
falcolombardi wrote:Temptatively sonethingh like this i guess
2009 2012 2013
1986 1984 2016 2017
1981 2014 1985 2018 2020 1987 2010
Wait, what the hell is the case for 81, 85 and 87 over 2010 Lebron?
Re: Top 12 seasons between Larry Bird and LeBron James
Posted: Wed Jul 6, 2022 3:19 am
by homecourtloss
Ginoboleee wrote:Nothing to see here, just transparent objective criteria, you know, science stuff. Step 1: Drop all seasons with PER less than 24. That gives me 6 candidate-seasons for Bird, and an incredible 18 for James. Now I have a nice big pool of peak seasons to further research.
Step 2: Drop all seasons with MVP vote rank of 4th or worse. The 6 Bird candidate-seasons from above all stay, while now James has ONLY 11 candidate-seasons left in the pool.
Step 3: Drop any season in which during a Finals, one or more of these things happened: (a) even though it was NOT their first finals appearance, the star was inexplicably and consistently dazed, lethargic, and generally disassociated from their normal levels of play, (b) the star's team was either Swept OR Gentleman Swept by a very old team, or (c) the star's team won a title in unprecedented artificial empty pristine conditions, where many teams did not want to stay or compete, and somehow the home team was the only one to show much spirit other than the star's winning team. Hmm, not sure how those might apply, let's see, oh hey, what do you know, bing-bang-and-bongo - imagine the odds! So, let's see, the 6 Bird candidate-seasons from above all stay, while now James has ONLY 8 candidate-seasons left in the pool.
Step 4: Drop any season with RS TOV% over 14 and/or RS WS under 12. The Bird seasons stay again, and now James is down to 6 of his own as well.
Weird how some of these steps are impacting only one player. Stats and analytics and research can be a bit strange sometimes, yeah? But so insightful, so powerful, objective, so clean, so true, am I right?
Step 5: Now that we have 12 seasons in total, we shall for the final step simply rank all 12 by RS USG%, with the lower RS USG% being preferred. Why? Oh, I think you know why. I am sure there are lots of good reasons to prefer excellent seasons with lower USG%, yes? It is still a team game after all, at least I thought it was.
Hey, let's look at the results now, shall we? So much science, so much deep inquiry, into what was previously clouded by faulty memory, false narratives, and biased preferences - no more such irrationality I say! Be gone!
And don't worry, I won't invoke a Special Eras Adjustment, since that is so controversial anyways. We will just assume that all 12 of these excellent seasons are perfectly comparable after meeting all previous steps. Let's see how it all shakes out!
Is this some sort of shtick?
Re: Top 12 seasons between Larry Bird and LeBron James
Posted: Wed Jul 6, 2022 3:21 am
by Ginoboleee
Dear HomeCourtLoss,
Cheers, G.
Re: Top 12 seasons between Larry Bird and LeBron James
Posted: Wed Jul 6, 2022 3:43 am
by falcolombardi
No-more-rings wrote:
falcolombardi wrote:Temptatively sonethingh like this i guess
2009 2012 2013
1986 1984 2016 2017
1981 2014 1985 2018 2020 1987 2010
Wait, what the hell is the case for 81, 85 and 87 over 2010 Lebron?
The tiers order is not that well thought of, the tiers themselves are mpre important
As for why 81/85/87 would be on the level of 2010 lebron? The somewhat dissapointing playoffs performance in 2010
Re: Top 12 seasons between Larry Bird and LeBron James
Posted: Wed Jul 6, 2022 3:44 am
by Colbinii
homecourtloss wrote:
Ginoboleee wrote:Nothing to see here, just transparent objective criteria, you know, science stuff. Step 1: Drop all seasons with PER less than 24. That gives me 6 candidate-seasons for Bird, and an incredible 18 for James. Now I have a nice big pool of peak seasons to further research.
Step 2: Drop all seasons with MVP vote rank of 4th or worse. The 6 Bird candidate-seasons from above all stay, while now James has ONLY 11 candidate-seasons left in the pool.
Step 3: Drop any season in which during a Finals, one or more of these things happened: (a) even though it was NOT their first finals appearance, the star was inexplicably and consistently dazed, lethargic, and generally disassociated from their normal levels of play, (b) the star's team was either Swept OR Gentleman Swept by a very old team, or (c) the star's team won a title in unprecedented artificial empty pristine conditions, where many teams did not want to stay or compete, and somehow the home team was the only one to show much spirit other than the star's winning team. Hmm, not sure how those might apply, let's see, oh hey, what do you know, bing-bang-and-bongo - imagine the odds! So, let's see, the 6 Bird candidate-seasons from above all stay, while now James has ONLY 8 candidate-seasons left in the pool.
Step 4: Drop any season with RS TOV% over 14 and/or RS WS under 12. The Bird seasons stay again, and now James is down to 6 of his own as well.
Weird how some of these steps are impacting only one player. Stats and analytics and research can be a bit strange sometimes, yeah? But so insightful, so powerful, objective, so clean, so true, am I right?
Step 5: Now that we have 12 seasons in total, we shall for the final step simply rank all 12 by RS USG%, with the lower RS USG% being preferred. Why? Oh, I think you know why. I am sure there are lots of good reasons to prefer excellent seasons with lower USG%, yes? It is still a team game after all, at least I thought it was.
Hey, let's look at the results now, shall we? So much science, so much deep inquiry, into what was previously clouded by faulty memory, false narratives, and biased preferences - no more such irrationality I say! Be gone!
And don't worry, I won't invoke a Special Eras Adjustment, since that is so controversial anyways. We will just assume that all 12 of these excellent seasons are perfectly comparable after meeting all previous steps. Let's see how it all shakes out!
Is this some sort of shtick?
It's almost as if someone new, with 140 posts in 16 days, isn't actually new at all
Re: Top 12 seasons between Larry Bird and LeBron James
Posted: Wed Jul 6, 2022 4:00 am
by Ginoboleee
Dear Colbinii,
Wait lol does that mean I am a fast learner? And am quickly picking up some of the jargon?
Or simply that I've posted a sufficient amount that I have left Noob status way behind in the nether regions of a week or two ago?
Or that you like my creative tone in which I try to needle/mock/satirize a certain simplistic overconfidence in reductive stats that if unchecked shall continue to encourage a litany of interpretive fallacies, false specificity, and hubristic nonsense?
Or that I am supposedly somebody else you know but strangely hiding behind a new burner account? If this last one is what you meant, who pray tell was/is this person? Shouldn't be too hard to figure out that s/he is not I. How would we do that?
Re: Top 12 seasons between Larry Bird and LeBron James
Posted: Wed Jul 6, 2022 9:37 am
by No-more-rings
falcolombardi wrote:
No-more-rings wrote:
falcolombardi wrote:Temptatively sonethingh like this i guess
2009 2012 2013
1986 1984 2016 2017
1981 2014 1985 2018 2020 1987 2010
Wait, what the hell is the case for 81, 85 and 87 over 2010 Lebron?
The tiers order is not that well thought of, the tiers themselves are mpre important
As for why 81/85/87 would be on the level of 2010 lebron? The somewhat dissapointing playoffs performance in 2010
That “somewhat disappointing” level was still better than what Bird did in the playoffs those years, with his regular season being much more impactful to boot. Those Bird years are definitely not on the same level overall.
Re: Top 12 seasons between Larry Bird and LeBron James
