RealGM

Who's the better overall player?

Think I would go Jrue, because I am really low on what Harden can do against set defenses, that don't over commit and make him finish over bigs this year. Really hope this is just some lingering mess from his hamstring, and we can get a much better version of him next year.

Jrue for all his issues on offense, can give you defense that is BITW for a guard (him, Marcus Smart, or Alex Caruso based on matchup).

LukaTheGOAT wrote:Think I would go Jrue, because I am really low on what Harden can do against set defenses, that don't over commit and make him finish over bigs this year.

i don't know if they were set or not, but the defenses jrue faced in the playoffs held him to 46.1 TS%, despite being hyperfocused on giannis.

i wonder how long i'll have to read the PC board before harden wins a poll on here.

f4p wrote:

LukaTheGOAT wrote:Think I would go Jrue, because I am really low on what Harden can do against set defenses, that don't over commit and make him finish over bigs this year.

i don't know if they were set or not, but the defenses jrue faced in the playoffs held him to 46.1 TS%, despite being hyperfocused on giannis.

i wonder how long i'll have to read the PC board before harden wins a poll on here.

Harden's main value comes from his offense, Jrue's comes from his defense (or at least it's close). So it shouldn't really surprise you that someone focuses more on Harden's scoring problems than Jrue's.

f4p wrote:

LukaTheGOAT wrote:Think I would go Jrue, because I am really low on what Harden can do against set defenses, that don't over commit and make him finish over bigs this year.

i don't know if they were set or not, but the defenses jrue faced in the playoffs held him to 46.1 TS%, despite being hyperfocused on giannis.

i wonder how long i'll have to read the PC board before harden wins a poll on here.

I do think that Harden is sometimes underrated - my opinion on him is definitely seems to be higher than most on the board based on some of the discourse I see.

I did pick Jrue, though. Harden is still a clearly high-level offensive player but he hasn't been the same player to me since the hamstring injury versus Milwaukee. Harden's shooting efficiency was concerning ... he struggled finishing at times and his eFG% and TS% were both the worst of his career by a clear margin outside of his rookie season. Jrue had a clearly impactful years on both ends, I think he's a fair choice here.

With that said I'm hopeful that Harden will look better next year, similar to CP3 looking improved after what looked like a down year in 2019.

Picked Jrue, prepared to eat my words in x months because Harden is a much bigger caliber of player.

f4p wrote:

LukaTheGOAT wrote:Think I would go Jrue, because I am really low on what Harden can do against set defenses, that don't over commit and make him finish over bigs this year.

i don't know if they were set or not, but the defenses jrue faced in the playoffs held him to 46.1 TS%, despite being hyperfocused on giannis.

i wonder how long i'll have to read the PC board before harden wins a poll on here.

lol i remmeber when harden lost a poll to manu ginobili and steve nash on this same very pc board

harden has haters because his 2020 season peaked higher than all of their favorite players like kobe, wade and even durant

the advanced stats are on hardens side and have been for a while now

harden this past season posted averages of 22/10/7 on 58% true shooting and if his last name was any name but harden he would have been would been a lock for an all-nba team, but because harden set the bar so high, a season like this past season is used to say he sucks lol. Keep in mind harden had his lowest usage rate since he was in okc this past season.

we are gonna look back 20 years from now, and see how the nba media have had an axe to grind with harden his whole career. How many guys you know can average 29/7/6/2 on 59% true shooting and not make a single all nba team. I'll wait

durantbird wrote:Who's the better overall player?

Jrue, pretty easily.

For Harden to remain above Jrue, he has to be playing like a top tier offensive player, and he wasn't last year.

Jaivl wrote:Picked Jrue, prepared to eat my words in x months because Harden is a much bigger caliber of player.

If Harden plays better again, he'll surpass Jrue, but that won't change what happened last year.

The-Power wrote:

f4p wrote:

LukaTheGOAT wrote:Think I would go Jrue, because I am really low on what Harden can do against set defenses, that don't over commit and make him finish over bigs this year.

i don't know if they were set or not, but the defenses jrue faced in the playoffs held him to 46.1 TS%, despite being hyperfocused on giannis.

i wonder how long i'll have to read the PC board before harden wins a poll on here.

Harden's main value comes from his offense, Jrue's comes from his defense (or at least it's close). So it shouldn't really surprise you that someone focuses more on Harden's scoring problems than Jrue's.

okay, but a 26 USG% is pretty high and 46 TS% is pretty terrible. especially when all 5 defenders are focusing on giannis. he had -0.4 OWS in the playoffs. so he was actively subtracting from his defense even in an ideal situation. and despite playing with a guy in the running for DPOY, milwaukee only finished 14th in defense this year so it's hard to say how great holiday was on that end this year.

f4p wrote:

The-Power wrote:

f4p wrote:
i don't know if they were set or not, but the defenses jrue faced in the playoffs held him to 46.1 TS%, despite being hyperfocused on giannis.

i wonder how long i'll have to read the PC board before harden wins a poll on here.

Harden's main value comes from his offense, Jrue's comes from his defense (or at least it's close). So it shouldn't really surprise you that someone focuses more on Harden's scoring problems than Jrue's.

okay, but a 26 USG% is pretty high and 46 TS% is pretty terrible. especially when all 5 defenders are focusing on giannis. he had -0.4 OWS in the playoffs. so he was actively subtracting from his defense even in an ideal situation. and despite playing with a guy in the running for DPOY, milwaukee only finished 14th in defense this year so it's hard to say how great holiday was on that end this year.

That's cherry-picking, though. You focus on his postseason offense and his (team's) regular season defense, but not on his regular season offense and his (team's) postseason defense. Simply because that would lead to the opposite conclusion which does not suit your stance in this conversation. I'm sure you can see how biased that looks from an outside perspective. And this is before getting into the measures you use to determine how good he was.

NBA4Lyfe wrote:
lol i remmeber when harden lost a poll to manu ginobili and steve nash on this same very pc board

yeah i wasn't here for the nash poll but i stumbled across it going through old threads one day and just had to laugh. that's when i knew the struggle was real. somehow the answer was because nash was better in the playoffs, despite his absolute numbers not being better and his dropoff from the regular season being fairly similar and him not getting any closer to a title than harden, despite the 00's spurs not being on the level of the KD warriors.

we are gonna look back 20 years from now, and see how the nba media have had an axe to grind with harden his whole career. How many guys you know can average 29/7/6/2 on 59% true shooting and not make a single all nba team. I'll wait

and that's when i knew the struggle was real with the media. only lebron, oscar, and MJ had ever put up 29/7/6 and harden didn't even get the 3rd team! quickly followed by not only losing an mvp to a guy on a 6th seed, but a guy on a 6th seed who openly despises the media.

NBA4Lyfe wrote:

f4p wrote:

LukaTheGOAT wrote:Think I would go Jrue, because I am really low on what Harden can do against set defenses, that don't over commit and make him finish over bigs this year.

i don't know if they were set or not, but the defenses jrue faced in the playoffs held him to 46.1 TS%, despite being hyperfocused on giannis.

i wonder how long i'll have to read the PC board before harden wins a poll on here.

lol i remmeber when harden lost a poll to manu ginobili and steve nash on this same very pc board

harden has haters because his 2020 season peaked higher than all of their favorite players like kobe, wade and even durant

the advanced stats are on hardens side and have been for a while now

harden this past season posted averages of 22/10/7 on 58% true shooting and if his last name was any name but harden he would have been would been a lock for an all-nba team, but because harden set the bar so high, a season like this past season is used to say he sucks lol. Keep in mind harden had his lowest usage rate since he was in okc this past season.

we are gonna look back 20 years from now, and see how the nba media have had an axe to grind with harden his whole career. How many guys you know can average 29/7/6/2 on 59% true shooting and not make a single all nba team. I'll wait

fp4, I implied it in my post, but I recognize Jrue has not be good offensively in the PS the last 2 PS. Nonetheless, Jrue being perhaps the ideal POA defender for today's game is still intriguing. I know Harden is a better offensive player than Jrue.

Nonetheless, I don't see why I should be so enticed to believe that Harden is clear of Jrue in 22. Impact Metrics including plus-minus universally agree that Jrue was better than Harden for the majority of the season:

Jrue Holiday was #1 in the league in Luck-Adjusted On/Off. Simply put, Jrue is incredibly value in his role, as a 3rd option on offense kind of guy. I think Jrue in his role is highly valuable, while Harden being a top 2 option on offense (based on last season) has limitations.

RAPTOR-4.8

LEBRON-3.32

Basketball Database's PIPM-4.61

James Harden

RAPTOR-2.1 (7.2 WAR)

LEBRON-3.13

Basketball Database's PIPM (Brooklyn)-1.57

Basketball Database's PIPM (PHL)-(-0.21)

Jrue here, rates out as a more productive player on a per-possession basis. His offense declines in the PS, but as many would tell you by eyetest, his defense jumps multiple levels in the PS as well (which partially explains why Bucks PS Defense>RS Defense). It is also the fact that the Bucks got Brook Lopez back toward the end of the year, and Giannis also did not seem to have his motor completely revving until playoff time either.

In a PS metric, like AuPM/G, Jrue Holiday comes out looking more impactful as a PS performer in 22, precisely because of that defense of his that is so valuable.

I also don't know how much I buy James Harden having so much more attention on him as a scorer than Jrue Holiday, considering defenses are hyper-focused on Embiid (leading scorer in the league), as well as Tyrese Maxey being a better ancillary option than anyone Jrue Holiday had to take the pressure off of him (considering Middleton was out).



Also the talk referring Harden's peak being above the guys listed has been addressed I feel by people. But nonetheless, I do believe Harden has a good argument for having peaked higher than those guys in the RS. However, people put more onus on the PS, and believe those guys are preferable.

Great question.

The real issue is whether the Harden Decline is
(a) fast (as it seems from late last season)
(b) slow (as it seemed earlier last season when he had some good moments)
(c) reversible (as is possible when players take conditioning very seriously and/or ease off on The Velvet Rope VIP Lifestyle)

I'd vote (a).
So I'd even consider Jrue's backup!

But the IRL GMs are actually trying to figure out this puzzle too.
Lost His Step Harden's valuation is in such flux that somebody is about to get a big surprise, be it Daryl or the rest of us!

Doctor MJ wrote:

Jaivl wrote:Picked Jrue, prepared to eat my words in x months because Harden is a much bigger caliber of player.

If Harden plays better again, he'll surpass Jrue, but that won't change what happened last year.

Yeah, but, you know, this totally smells like a thread that could get bumped in 6 months or so.

Jaivl wrote:

Doctor MJ wrote:

Jaivl wrote:Picked Jrue, prepared to eat my words in x months because Harden is a much bigger caliber of player.

If Harden plays better again, he'll surpass Jrue, but that won't change what happened last year.

Yeah, but, you know, this totally smells like a thread that could get bumped in 6 months or so.

Let me attest that I am with Jaivi on this and Harden could come back better than Jrue (I hope). His 21 version I think has an argument than being better than 21 Durant when healthy.

LukaTheGOAT wrote:

NBA4Lyfe wrote:

f4p wrote:
i don't know if they were set or not, but the defenses jrue faced in the playoffs held him to 46.1 TS%, despite being hyperfocused on giannis.

i wonder how long i'll have to read the PC board before harden wins a poll on here.

lol i remmeber when harden lost a poll to manu ginobili and steve nash on this same very pc board

harden has haters because his 2020 season peaked higher than all of their favorite players like kobe, wade and even durant

the advanced stats are on hardens side and have been for a while now

harden this past season posted averages of 22/10/7 on 58% true shooting and if his last name was any name but harden he would have been would been a lock for an all-nba team, but because harden set the bar so high, a season like this past season is used to say he sucks lol. Keep in mind harden had his lowest usage rate since he was in okc this past season.

we are gonna look back 20 years from now, and see how the nba media have had an axe to grind with harden his whole career. How many guys you know can average 29/7/6/2 on 59% true shooting and not make a single all nba team. I'll wait

fp4, I implied it in my post, but I recognize Jrue has not be good offensively in the PS the last 2 PS. Nonetheless, Jrue being perhaps the ideal POA defender for today's game is still intriguing. I know Harden is a better offensive player than Jrue.

Nonetheless, I don't see why I should be so enticed to believe that Harden is clear of Jrue in 22. Impact Metrics including plus-minus universally agree that Jrue was better than Harden for the majority of the season:

Jrue Holiday was #1 in the league in Luck-Adjusted On/Off. Simply put, Jrue is incredibly value in his role, as a 3rd option on offense kind of guy. I think Jrue in his role is highly valuable, while Harden being a top 2 option on offense (based on last season) has limitations.

RAPTOR-4.8

LEBRON-3.32

Basketball Database's PIPM-4.61

James Harden

RAPTOR-2.1 (7.2 WAR)

LEBRON-3.13

Basketball Database's PIPM (Brooklyn)-1.57

Basketball Database's PIPM (PHL)-(-0.21)

Jrue here, rates out as a more productive player on a per-possession basis. His offense declines in the PS, but as many would tell you by eyetest, his defense jumps multiple levels in the PS as well (which partially explains why Bucks PS Defense>RS Defense). It is also the fact that the Bucks got Brook Lopez back toward the end of the year, and Giannis also did not seem to have his motor completely revving until playoff time either.

In a PS metric, like AuPM/G, Jrue Holiday comes out looking more impactful as a PS performer in 22, precisely because of that defense of his that is so valuable.

I also don't know how much I buy James Harden having so much more attention on him as a scorer than Jrue Holiday, considering defenses are hyper-focused on Embiid (leading scorer in the league), as well as Tyrese Maxey being a better ancillary option than anyone Jrue Holiday had to take the pressure off of him (considering Middleton was out).



Also the talk referring Harden's peak being above the guys listed has been addressed I feel by people. But nonetheless, I do believe Harden has a good argument for having peaked higher than those guys in the RS. However, people put more onus on the PS, and believe those guys are preferable.

harden still commands respect on the court from opposing defenses as he was still one of the most double teamed players in the league last year in both philly and brooklyn

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Am I crazy for thinking the defensive gap isn't actually that massive? Obviously Jrue is in the upper tiers of defensive PGs but I also don't think Harden is the turns dial that he was at times in Houston, he's actually solidly average there now and with his size and length can provide value. Plus the fact that there's really only so much a POA or guard defender can do to impact the game. Obviously Jrue had a couple great defensive plays in the playoffs but does that swing the pendulum so much in the other direction that we ignore what I think is a clear gap offensively, even in Harden's declined state?

Not sure who'd I'd pick here but to me it's close.

RCM88x wrote:Am I crazy for thinking the defensive gap isn't actually that massive? Obviously Jrue is in the upper tiers of defensive PGs but I also don't think Harden is the turns dial that he was at times in Houston, he's actually solidly average there now and with his size and length can provide value. Plus the fact that there's really only so much a POA or guard defender can do to impact the game. Obviously Jrue had a couple great defensive plays in the playoffs but does that swing the pendulum so much in the other direction that we ignore what I think is a clear gap offensively, even in Harden's declined state?

Not sure who'd I'd pick here but to me it's close.

Another "he's average defensively" post....

Yes, the gap between them defensively is massive. What other adjective would you use, semi-massive?

Two years prior, Harden was likely a top 5 player, it shows you how far he’s fallen that he’s being compared to a guy who wasn’t even all star caliber. Great defender in that Buck’s system for sure though.