George/Butler vs Carmelo

[SpreeS]

Will these two way wings George/Butler catch Carmelo in all time rankings? Both have better PO career even now, but its hard to see they will catch Carmelo on longevity.

[sp6r=underrated]

Will these two way wings George/Butler catch Carmelo in all time rankings? Both have better PO career even now, but its hard to see they will catch Carmelo on longevity.

I'm not a Melo hater. I'll always appreciate he wanted to play with the Knicks and his 2013 campaign is undervalued by his critics. But the reason the 2013 campaign was an outlier for him was he played his best position and the one he hated, PF. And even when he was playing his best position at his peak physically he was still inferior to George and Butler. Both of these have logged numerous seasons better than Melo's best and the gap is real.

The biggest reason for the gap is defense. simply put Melo was and is a terrible defensive player. He's only slight better on that end than Trae. And these are comparable offensive players.

As to Longevity, that matters a lot when you have players who played at a similar level. Wade does fall down my all time list because he imploded relatively young. West will get hurt on that front too. But meaningless longevity really doesn't. Melo has been a bad player since 2019 and irrelevant since 2017.

George & Butler passed him for me awhile ago.

[Colbinii]

Yeah, they already have.

[Dutchball97]

I think Butler is comfortably ahead already. PG13 I'm not quite sure yet but I do think he'll end up ahead of Carmelo eventually as well.

[sp6r=underrated]

Melo is a guy whose rep is going to sink like a stone once he retires.

The people who remember 2003 Syracuse are already a minority of basketball fans. He wasn't a traditional highlight real player. Nor did he play on memorable teams or leave behind a huge fanbase in any city he played for. To younger fans the things he excelled at don't matter anymore.

The B-R historians are going to find his stats very lacking. Nor will his award recognition (MVP/All-NBA) stand out.

In 20 yrs, the small minority of basketball fans that are into historical debate will probably end up debating Melo vs David West when discussing the 2003 Draft

[No-more-rings]

Longevity doesn't much matter when people are different class of players. The best we've seen out of Butler in at least a few season far eclipses Melo at his best. These are both guys with close to a decade of meaningful play, multiple all star type guys. They're better and should be ranked higher.

[cupcakesnake]

We're talking about a massive gap in defensive impact, even if you like Melo's offense more. You'd have to think Melo was on a whole other planet, offensively. With Melo's poor passing, I just don't see how you can get there. Butler and George are high than Melo on any list that thinks about things like defense.

[kcktiny]

I'm sure I'll get flack for this but IMHO I think Jimmy Butler's defense is and has been on par with that of Kawhi Leonard. Not better, but just as good or a just a hair worse.

That puts him levels above Carmelo Anthony as a ballplayer.

[sp6r=underrated]

We're talking about a massive gap in defensive impact, even if you like Melo's offense more. You'd have to think Melo was on a whole other planet, offensively. With Melo's poor passing, I just don't see how you can get there. Butler and George are high than Melo on any list that thinks about things like defense.

I first joined RealGM in 2007. Melo was one of the most important players for changing how I thought about basketball. I remember reading serious posts, from long-forgotten posters, who pointed out how his massive defensive deficiencies limited his value.

Trae is a better offensive player than Melo, playing in a vastly different/smarter era, but I think he'll fill a similar role to younger fans showing how much damage a bad defensive player can do

[cupcakesnake]

We're talking about a massive gap in defensive impact, even if you like Melo's offense more. You'd have to think Melo was on a whole other planet, offensively. With Melo's poor passing, I just don't see how you can get there. Butler and George are high than Melo on any list that thinks about things like defense.

I first joined RealGM in 2007. Melo was one of the most important players for changing how I thought about basketball. I remember reading serious posts, from long-forgotten posters, who pointed out how his massive defensive deficiencies limited his value.

Trae is a better offensive player than Melo, playing in a vastly different/smarter era, but I think he'll fill a similar role to younger fans showing how much damage a bad defensive player can do

I think with Trae his shortcomings on defense are so obvious, that it colors the perception of him in real time. Despite lots of smart people agreeing with the idea that Trae might even be one of the 5 best offensive players in the NBA, but people have a really hard time ranking him as a top 15 overall player a lot of the time. You can see the dilemma playing out more of what to do with such an unbalanced player. I think with Melo, we stayed in denial for much of his career. Either "ehhh he's not thaaat bad" or thinking he could improve or be put in the right role. So a lot of us, when the dust was kind of settling on Melo's career, looked back on his career and pulled off the veil all at once and maybe even felt a bit betrayed, which I think was a part of the Melo backlash.

People will be kinder to Trae I think too, because it's easier to understand why he's so poor on defense. He's a tiny piece of tissue paper. With Melo, George Karl said it early and often: he could have been one of the better defenders in the league if he gave a damn. It all feels more incriminating with Melo. He had strength, length, and explosiveness and still came out one of the worst defenders in the NBA? Maybe some earlier acceptance of this would have changed how teams built around him too. We now see the Hawks scrambling to put the right defensive personnel around Trae, where Melo (though he did play with some strong defensive frontcourt pieces in Denver and New York) would be put next to Amar'e or Iverson and teams were thinking they'd be contending.

I might just be sharing my own perspective and pretending it was more universal, I don't know. I really liked Melo and patterned my game after him in high school and university (I copied his offense, not his defense lol), so I felt a bit betrayed that he became one of those players that refused, or was incapable of, working on the non-scoring components of his game.

[cpower]

Melo is not a good offensive player and bad defender.

i can see Melo vs Millsap, Rashard Lewis, LMA debates and he is not leading this group either.

[sp6r=underrated]

Melo is not a good offensive player

So yeah this is plainly incorrect and a good example of how just blindly looking at TS+ to evaluate offense can lead to player evaluation errors as bad as looking at block/steals for defensive evaluation. Melo been a high volume shot creator on good offensive teams for most of his prime. His offensive +/- numbers, while not as good as his rep show a good offensive player. Same for the advanced all in one box score stats. He was a good offensive player.

[ronnymac2]

I'll never forgive Melo for facilitating the breakup of my favorite post-Ewing Knick team. MDA had Felton/Fields/Chandler/Gallinari/Amar'e playing like a team on the rise. Solid bench with shooters and Mozgov.

Would it have gone anywhere with the health of Amar'e? I don't know, probably not, but regardless, they shouldn't have ever done that trade which to me set the Knicks back for the decade. 2013 squad, while good, wasn't worth blowing up the 2010 core. Billups was old and Melo was bleh.

I'll easily take Butler over Melo. Not so sure about Paul George, who is imo an overrated offensive player. I don't know how a player who jacks up perimeter shots, doesn't create, and has pedestrian foul draw somehow turns the ball over as much as he does. It speaks to George's offensive bball IQ - how low it is. Great defensive player though. I'd probably take George over Melo on the basis of it's probably easier to convince George to stay as a 14 PPG perimeter threat than it is to cover for Melo's turnstile defense (assuming we get George young).

[ShotCreator]

Melo is not a good offensive player and bad defender.

i can see Melo vs Millsap, Rashard Lewis, LMA debates and he is not leading this group either.

Gonna take this chance to say Paul Millsap was flat out a better basketball player than Carmelo Anthony. Better prime, higher peak, more scalable with talent.

And hesitating to take PG over Carmelo is way too hard on PG or easy on Carmelo.

Paul George is really good at basketball. Outside a couple post-injury years he’s packed an impact punch on par with everyone except league MVP winners and sometimes as high as MVP like 2019.

[cpower]

Melo is not a good offensive player

So yeah this is plainly incorrect and a good example of how just blindly looking at TS+ to evaluate offense can lead to player evaluation errors as bad as looking at block/steals for defensive evaluation. Melo been a high volume shot creator on good offensive teams for most of his prime. His offensive +/- numbers, while not as good as his rep show a good offensive player. Same for the advanced all in one box score stats. He was a good offensive player.

he is not a good offensive player because as No.1 option for your team your offense will not go anywhere. he is not scalable with others on the team, he is ball stopping, he is not looking to pass, he is basically halting the flow of the offense. He is one of the least stars i would pick to start a franchise.

[Wigginstime]

Melo is a guy whose rep is going to sink like a stone once he retires.

The people who remember 2003 Syracuse are already a minority of basketball fans. He wasn't a traditional highlight real player. Nor did he play on memorable teams or leave behind a huge fanbase in any city he played for. To younger fans the things he excelled at don't matter anymore.

The B-R historians are going to find his stats very lacking. Nor will his award recognition (MVP/All-NBA) stand out.

In 20 yrs, the small minority of basketball fans that are into historical debate will probably end up debating Melo vs David West when discussing the 2003 Draft

I disagree with this premises. Carmelo is the #11 all time NBA leading scorer and is #9 if you excluded ABA.

10 years from now Melo will be
Top 15 all time NBA scoring leader
Top 5 in Olympic achievements
NCAA national champion

Compare this to PG13 who has 15000 career points to Melos 28000 career points and a fraction of the achievements Melo does. I can't image anyone in 10 years from now will look back and try to build an argument of why Paul George was better than Melo.

Jimmy Butler has 2 finals appearance so people may think of him as greater; however, in 10 years i doubt most people remember the guys on the loosing team. Once again the stat chases are going to be comparing Butler a guy with 12000 career points to a guy like Melo who has 28000 career points.

I get Melo is hated on this board. But history will help him as 28000 career points, 3 Gold Medals, and a NCAA championship will age a hell of a lot better than "plays good defense on finals loosing team".

Melo will be regarded as an all time great and George and Butler will be forgotten. I'm not a fan of Melo but his achievements simply stand the test of time better even though he was inefficient and a terrible defender.

[sp6r=underrated]

Melo is not a good offensive player

So yeah this is plainly incorrect and a good example of how just blindly looking at TS+ to evaluate offense can lead to player evaluation errors as bad as looking at block/steals for defensive evaluation. Melo been a high volume shot creator on good offensive teams for most of his prime. His offensive +/- numbers, while not as good as his rep show a good offensive player. Same for the advanced all in one box score stats. He was a good offensive player.

he is not a good offensive player because as No.1 option for your team your offense will not go anywhere. he is not scalable with others on the team, he is ball stopping, he is not looking to pass, he is basically halting the flow of the offense. He is one of the least stars i would pick to start a franchise.

He put up very good box score stats, +/- stats on a very strong offensive team in 2013. And he was absolutely at t he center of that offense

[cpower]

So yeah this is plainly incorrect and a good example of how just blindly looking at TS+ to evaluate offense can lead to player evaluation errors as bad as looking at block/steals for defensive evaluation. Melo been a high volume shot creator on good offensive teams for most of his prime. His offensive +/- numbers, while not as good as his rep show a good offensive player. Same for the advanced all in one box score stats. He was a good offensive player.

he is not a good offensive player because as No.1 option for your team your offense will not go anywhere. he is not scalable with others on the team, he is ball stopping, he is not looking to pass, he is basically halting the flow of the offense. He is one of the least stars i would pick to start a franchise.

He put up very good box score stats, +/- stats on a very strong offensive team in 2013. And he was absolutely at t he center of that offense

for a outliner season yes but i dont believe he is coming close to that year for his career.

[sp6r=underrated]

he is not a good offensive player because as No.1 option for your team your offense will not go anywhere. he is not scalable with others on the team, he is ball stopping, he is not looking to pass, he is basically halting the flow of the offense. He is one of the least stars i would pick to start a franchise.

He put up very good box score stats, +/- stats on a very strong offensive team in 2013. And he was absolutely at t he center of that offense

for a outliner season yes but i dont believe he is coming close to that year for his career.

2008-10 Nuggets also had good offenses. He had good box score stats and good offensive +/- stats. There is no reason to believe he wasn't a good offensive player.

NBA teams have overvalued him but they aren't so clearly stupid to give an average offensive player and terrible defender that much money.

[cpower]

He put up very good box score stats, +/- stats on a very strong offensive team in 2013. And he was absolutely at t he center of that offense

for a outliner season yes but i dont believe he is coming close to that year for his career.

2008-10 Nuggets also had good offenses. He had good box score stats and good offensive +/- stats. There is no reason to believe he wasn't a good offensive player.

NBA teams have overvalued him but they aren't so clearly stupid to give an average offensive player and terrible defender that much money.

I think AI and Billups were the anchor on offense.