Who Are Your Top 5 Defensive Centers Of All Time? (In Order)

ty 4191 · Post #1 » by **ty 4191** » Fri Jul 8, 2022 10:23 pm

This was inspired by another thread where we were discussing Duncan vs. Hakeem (defensively), and, the discussion of who the top 5 (or top 2) defensive centers of all time might be.

I was really curious as to what the experts here thought, and thought it might spur some great discussion.

Discuss!

prolific passer · Post #2 » by **prolific passer** » Fri Jul 8, 2022 10:35 pm

1. Bill Russell. His whole focus was defense and rebounding.
2. Wilt. Just as good as Russell was on defense when he was focused.
3. Hakeem. His quickness really set him apart and was able to get a good amount of blocks and steals per season for around a 13 year stretch from 85-97.
4. David Robinson. Same as Hakeem but not as prolific as Hakeem did it.
5. Dikembe. Just ask the sonics in 94. 4 dpoys don't hurt either. Guarded Shaq pretty good in their 2 meetings in Shaq's mvp season in 99-00.

What hurts Wilt and Drob in their careers is that sometimes people felt they were too nice and it hurt them and their teams at times. Hakeem and Russell were not.

HM: Ben Wallace. 4dpoys from 01-07.
Nate Thurmond. Kareem said he guarded him the best within the rules in his career. Guess that means he didn't foul Kareem all that much which helped hold down Kareem's scoring.

DraymondGold · Post #3 » by **DraymondGold** » Fri Jul 8, 2022 11:03 pm

I'm less sure about the order, but I definitely have a clear tier of players based on their impact relative to era.

1) At the top is obviously the GOAT defender, Bill Russell. He does gain some separation due to era (rim protection and big man defense were at a premium in the 60s), but I also see him as the GOAT defender in any era. Great combination of athleticism and intelligence, GOAT level man defense among centers (only Hakeem and Thurmond compare) and GOAT level help defense / team defense.

2) After that, Hakeem at his defensive peak is probably second. GOAT level man defender among centers, while also having the mobility and agility to have that game-changing help defense.

The next 3 are harder to order. Here's my tentative order, but I'm definitely open to discussion.

3) Duncan. Great rim protection, rebounding, intimidation, and team defense. The clear cornerstone of the greatest defensive dynasty of the modern era. Played power forward in a twin towers defensive scheme at his peak, but clearly played center later in his career and could have played center on almost any team at his peak (he just happened to be drafted next to older Robinson).
4) Wilt. All time rim protector, rebounder, and shot blocker. Definitely has the athleticism to play man defense against the best and biggest centers. But, He has greater defensive variability. That inconsistency (higher peak, lower lows) makes him a bit harder to rank, depending on if we're ranking based on peak or career. I also see his lack of quickness/agility as a slight problem in later eras, though I still see him as a top 10 defender of all time in almost any era.
5). Robinson.

Garnett is absolutely in this tier above, and he absolutely could play big man (especially in the small-ball era), but since he's less of a clear center than the other 5, I left him off.

Other contenders might be Mutumbo, Ben Wallace, Patrick Ewing, Nate Thurmond, and Walton (if you only care about peak), but I tend to have them just a tier below.

ceoofkobefans · Post #4 » by **ceoofkobefans** » Fri Jul 8, 2022 11:15 pm

1. Bill Russell
2. Hakeem
3. Wilt Chamberlain
4. Nate Thurmond
5. David Robinson

ty 4191 · Post #5 » by **ty 4191** » Fri Jul 8, 2022 11:21 pm

DraymondGold wrote:I'm less sure about the order, but I definitely have a clear tier of players based on their impact relative to era.

1) At the top is obviously the GOAT defender, Bill Russell. He does gain some separation due to era (rim protection and big man defense were at a premium in the 60s), but I also see him as the GOAT defender in any era. Great combination of athleticism and intelligence, GOAT level man defense among centers (only Hakeem and Thurmond compare) and GOAT level help defense / team defense.

2) After that, Hakeem at his defensive peak is probably second. GOAT level man defender among centers, while also having the mobility and agility to have that game-changing help defense.

The next 3 are harder to order. Here's my tentative order, but I'm definitely open to discussion.

3) Duncan. Great rim protection, rebounding, intimidation, and team defense. The clear cornerstone of the greatest defensive dynasty of the modern era. Played power forward in a twin towers defensive scheme at his peak, but clearly played center later in his career and could have played center on almost any team at his peak (he just happened to be drafted next to older Robinson).
4) Wilt. All time rim protector, rebounder, and shot blocker. Definitely has the athleticism to play man defense against the best and biggest centers. But, He has greater defensive variability. That inconsistency (higher peak, lower lows) makes him a bit harder to rank, depending on if we're ranking based on peak or career. I also see his lack of quickness/agility as a slight problem in later eras, though I still see him as a top 10 defender of all time in almost any era.
5). Robinson.

Garnett is absolutely in this tier above, and he absolutely could play big man (especially in the small-ball era), but since he's less of a clear center than the other 5, I left him off.

Other contenders might be Mutumbo, Ben Wallace, Patrick Ewing, Nate Thurmond, and Walton (if you only care about peak), but I tend to have them just a tier below.

Excellent list. Love it!!

Why Hakeem over Duncan, though?

All Defensive First Teams:
Duncan: 8
Hakeem: 5

All Defensive Teams:
Duncan: 15
Hakeem: 9

DPOY:
Hakeem: 2
Duncan: 0

Career Defensive Rating:
Duncan: 96
Hakeem: 98

Duncan leads in Defensive Win Shares per 48 in the RS and playoffs, though, it is close.

There's also this:

ty 4191 · Post #6 » by **ty 4191** » Fri Jul 8, 2022 11:23 pm

prolific passer wrote:Nate Thurmond. Kareem said he guarded him the best within the rules in his career. Guess that means he didn't foul Kareem all that much which helped hold down Kareem's scoring.

Might I suggest that Thurmond is absolutely top 5, if not higher?? :wink:

And, that WIlt certainly belongs top 5, if not even top 3 defensively?

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1jE5K2XrILol56zGe0e7LA-bKyRECGNgG/edit#gid=367062482

capfan33 · Post #7 » by **capfan33** » Fri Jul 8, 2022 11:36 pm

1. Russell
2. Hakeem
3. Robinson
4. Wilt
5. Mutombo/Duncan

mdonnelly1989 · Post #8 » by **mdonnelly1989** » Sat Jul 9, 2022 12:04 am

1.) Russell
2.) Hakeem
3.) Wilt
4.) David Robinson
5.) Ben Wallace/Mutombo

ty 4191 · Post #9 » by **ty 4191** » Sat Jul 9, 2022 12:32 am

Nice lists, gents!!

So, I'm curious why everyone thus far has chosen Hakeem over Duncan. What metrics point to that conclusion?

eminence · Post #10 » by **eminence** » Sat Jul 9, 2022 1:15 am

Honorable mentions first, then a countdown:
Mikan - would assuredly be on my list, but I have no real idea where to put him, so I'll just put him as my top HM
KG - a PF overall, but my top non-C defender of all-time (shoutout to Dray)
Walton - prime too short
Gilmore - led some dominant ABA defenses, but couldn't produce that in the NBA
KAJ - looked great with the split league Bucks, not so special post-merger (similar to Gilmore)
Thurmond - the man defender to end all man defenders for bigs, but the team results are weak enough that I question his team defense (relatively)

7-11 in some order, undecided:
Eaton
Mutombo
Wallace
Howard
Gobert

Some shorter primes here (Eaton/Wallace/Howard/Gobert - so far) and Mutombo who had a bit of inconsistency with his defensive results that most other greats don't seem to have had. Wouldn't surprise me if anyone had any of these guys in their top 5.

6. Ewing - Great great defensive career, seemed a bit more dependent on coaching/scheme than those who rank above him.
5. Wilt - Maybe the greatest defensive talent the game has seen, could've used a bit more appreciation of that end of the court. With more consistency likely would've been my #3.
4. Robinson - Spectacular career defensive results, great as a solo act and paired with Duncan.
3. Hakeem - Best looking defender I've had the pleasure of watching, could do it all so smoothly.
2. Duncan - I think Duncan is closer to Russell than anyone else is to Duncan. Off the charts consistency, and a peak as high as any.
1. Russell - I don't think I need to explain much here.

Edit: I decided on an order for the back:
11. Howard
10. Mutombo
9. Eaton
8. Wallace
7. Gobert (I'd say it's possible for him to get him up to #3 alltime, but could just as easily stay at #7)

JordansBulls · Post #11 » by **JordansBulls** » Sat Jul 9, 2022 1:34 am

Could we say someone is the GOAT defensive player when someone averaged 28 ppg/28 rpg for a career against them? I mean no one ever did that on Joakim Noah who wasn't even half the player.

ty 4191 · Post #12 » by **ty 4191** » Sat Jul 9, 2022 1:48 am

JordansBulls wrote:Could we say someone is the GOAT defensive player when someone averaged 28 ppg/28 rpg for a career against them? I mean no one ever did that on Joakim Noah who wasn't even half the player.

Who are you referring to?

eminence · Post #13 » by **eminence** » Sat Jul 9, 2022 2:21 am

ty 4191 wrote:
JordansBulls wrote:Could we say someone is the GOAT defensive player when someone averaged 28 ppg/28 rpg for a career against them? I mean no one ever did that on Joakim Noah who wasn't even half the player.

Who are you referring to?

Russell and Wilt.

MyUniBroDavis · Post #14 » by **MyUniBroDavis** » Sat Jul 9, 2022 2:28 am

eminence wrote:
ty 4191 wrote:
JordansBulls wrote:Could we say someone is the GOAT defensive player when someone averaged 28 ppg/28 rpg for a career against them? I mean no one ever did that on Joakim Noah who wasn't even half the player.

Who are you referring to?

Russell and Wilt.

I could feel you sighing at Jordanbulls as you typed this message lol

JordansBulls · Post #15 » by **JordansBulls** » Sat Jul 9, 2022 2:47 am

MyUniBroDavis wrote:
eminence wrote:
ty 4191 wrote:
Who are you referring to?

Russell and Wilt.

I could feel you sighing at Jordanbulls as you typed this message lol

How so? Can you really say someone was the GOAT defender if someone averaged 28 ppg and 28 rpg on them for a career?

Ginoboleee · Post #16 » by **Ginoboleee** » Sat Jul 9, 2022 3:18 am

Can I first get a Judge's Panel Ruling on Tim Duncan as a Center?
Please and thank you.

ty 4191 · Post #17 » by **ty 4191** » Sat Jul 9, 2022 3:24 am

JordansBulls wrote:
MyUniBroDavis wrote:
eminence wrote:
Russell and Wilt.

I could feel you sighing at Jordanbulls as you typed this message lol

How so? Can you really say someone was the GOAT defender if someone averaged 28 ppg and 28 rpg on them for a career?

Considering he was facing the GOAT offensive player/rebounder, in his prime? Given that, I'd say, "Yes, we certainly can still call Russell the greatest defensive center in NBA history."

JordansBulls · Post #18 » by **JordansBulls** » Sat Jul 9, 2022 3:33 am

ty 4191 wrote:
JordansBulls wrote:
MyUniBroDavis wrote:
I could feel you sighing at Jordanbulls as you typed this message lol

How so? Can you really say someone was the GOAT defender if someone averaged 28 ppg and 28 rpg on them for a career?

Considering he was facing the GOAT offensive player/rebounder, in his prime? Given that, I'd say, "Yes, we certainly can still call Russell the greatest defensive center in NBA history."

Naw we can't do that. No one ever did that to Joakim Noah and he wasn't considered as great a defender.

ty 4191 · Post #19 » by **ty 4191** » Sat Jul 9, 2022 3:42 am

JordansBulls wrote:Naw we can't do that. No one ever did that to Joakim Noah and he wasn't considered as great a defender.

Why do you keep brining him up as a frame of reference for Bill Russell?

What is your point? Who in today's game could possibly put up 28/28 for 10 years? Not possible.

The comparison- if you're making one- is a moot one.

ty 4191 · Post #20 » by **ty 4191** » Sat Jul 9, 2022 3:45 am

eminence wrote:5. Wilt - Maybe the greatest defensive talent the game has seen, could've used a bit more appreciation of that end of the court. With more consistency likely would've been my #3.

First of all, excellent list, and well substantiated points and rankings. Thank you for contributing!

Just curious, though, where do you get the thinking that Wilt lacked consistency on defense?