How soon do you expect Luka to break into the Giannis/Jokic tier, if at all?

[ardee]

Steph's Playoffs and a possible final push from LeBron notwithstanding, I think it's pretty clear that the 2020s will be the Giannis/Jokic decade. They were 27 and 26 respectively, have won the last 4 MVPs and both should be just entering their primes.

To me, Luka clearly has the talent to make it a 3 man discussion, and is already an elite player in his own right, but hasn't had the same kind of full season impact as the other two.

Do you think he can (to me it's a no brainer, yes), and if so, how soon do you think until it is perceived that way?

Also, do you think Zion can also reach that level?

[Cavsfansince84]

I think realistically he's already there on that level(with room for improvement). I'd also say its way too early to say he's out of a player of the 20's debate already. He may very well end up winning 3 mvps and 2-3 rings before it is over. Don't think Zion reaches that level. I think it's 50/50 we already saw peak Zion(sad to say but until proven otherwise).

[JordansBulls]

He is probably already there a MVP will seal it.

[LukaTheGOAT]

I think realistically he's already there on that level(with room for improvement). I'd also say its way too early to say he's out of a player of the 20's debate already. He may very well end up winning 3 mvps and 2-3 rings before it is over. Don't think Zion reaches that level. I think it's 50/50 we already saw peak Zion(sad to say but until proven otherwise).

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[LukaTheGOAT]

Luka will have to come into the season in shape if he wants to have the full-season dominance that Jokic and Embiid have touched.

However, in terms of playoff dominance you could argue that Luka has been comparable to Jokic in overall offensive performance

Luka and Jokic offensive performance against similar opponents in the PS.


Luka's averages vs Clippers in 2020 PS (Clippers had a rDRTG of -3.1)

31 points, 9.8 rebs, 8.7 assists, 5.2 turnovers (59.6 TS%) in 35.8 MPG.

GameScore-23.4

Dallas had a 113 ORTG, and 112 ORTG with Luka on.


Jokic's averages vs Clippers in 2020 PS (Clippers had a rDRTG of -3.1)

24.4 points, 13.4 rebounds, 6.6 assists, 4.7 turnovers (60.3 TS%) in 37.7 MPG.

GameScore-19.9

Denver had a 110.6 ORTG, and 108 offensive rating with Jokic on.


Luka's averages vs Clippers in 2021 PS (Clippers had a rDRTG of -1.3)

35.7 pts, 7.9 rebounds, 10.3 assists, 4.6 turnovers (57.2 TS%) in 40.2 MPG.

GameScore-26.1

Dallas had a 116.5 ORTG, and a 114 ORTG with Luka on.



Jokic's averages vs Suns in 2021 PS (Suns had a rDRTG of -1.1)

25 points, 13.3 rebounds, 5.8 assists, 2 turnovers (53 TS%) in 33.5 MPG

GameScore-22.2

Denver had a 107.9 ORTG, and 116 ORTG with Jokic on.


Luka's averages vs Suns in 2022 PS (Suns had a rDRTG of -4.6)

32.6 points, 9.9 rebounds, and 7 assists, 4 turnovers (58.3 TS%) in 36.1 MPG

GameScore-24.8

Dallas had a 116.8 ORTG and a 116 ORTG with Luka on.


Jokic's averages vs Warriors in 2022 PS (Warriors have a rDRTG of -4.9)

31 pts, 13.2 rebs, and 5.8 assists, 4.8 turnovers (64.3 TS%) in 34.2 MPG

GameScore-25.9

Denver had a 114.7 ORTG and a 119 ORTG with Jokic on.


Luka's averages vs Warriors in 2022 PS (Warriors have a rDRTG of -4.9)

To be continued...

(Update)

32 pts, 9.2 rebs, and 6 assists, 3.8 turnovers (55.9 TS%) in 38.2 MPG

GameScore-22.9




All in all

Luka's measurements in the aforementioned PS stats

BPM
20-7.9
21-11.8
22-9.3

Backpicks BPM
20-7.03
21-6.87
22-7.5

AuPM/g
20-2.8
21-3.9
22-3.2

RAPTOR
20-9.2
21-11.3
22-3.5

Jokic's measurements in recent PS runs

BPM
20-7.4
21-9
22-10.7

Backpicks BPM
20-6.43
21-6.12
22-7.8

AuPM/g
20-3.4
21-2.7
22-4.2

RAPTOR
20-4.8
21-7
22-10.3

Luka would do himself some good to continue improving his conditioning and become the plus defender I think he can become. He should continue to improve his shooting, and his shot-selection could be a bit better. Overall, I think he could boost his efficiency, and perhaps work on coming off screens and doing a bit more off-ball.

[SickMother]

Luka's great, but he needs to take a major efficiency leap to get into the Giannis/Jokic tier. Last three regular seasons...

Giannis: 31.0 PER | .626 TS% | 34.3 WS | .268 WS/48 | 10.6 BPM | +10.1 On/Off
N Jokic: 29.8 PER | .640 TS% | 40.7 WS | .268 WS/48 | 11.2 BPM | +9.7 On/Off
L Doncic: 25.9 PER | .581 TS% | 24.1 WS | .175 WS/48 | 7.8 BPM | +1.5 On/Off

Luka's last three years have been a lot closer to pre-breakout Westbrook from 11/12 to 13/14 than they have been to peak Giannis/Jokic...

RWB 11/12 to 13/14: 23.7 PER | .537 TS% | 24.8 WS | .180 WS/48 | 4.1 BPM | +2.8 On/Off

Westbrook did take a leap over the next three seasons fron 14/15 to 16/17, though I'd still put his peak a little short of Giannis/Jokic...

RWB 14/15 to 16/17: 29.1 PER | .548 TS% | 37.8 WS | .231 WS/48 | 9.1 BPM | +10.8 On/Off

[MyUniBroDavis]

I think realistically he's already there on that level(with room for improvement). I'd also say its way too early to say he's out of a player of the 20's debate already. He may very well end up winning 3 mvps and 2-3 rings before it is over. Don't think Zion reaches that level. I think it's 50/50 we already saw peak Zion(sad to say but until proven otherwise).

Bro dudes literally played 1 full season chill lol

[Cavsfansince84]

I think realistically he's already there on that level(with room for improvement). I'd also say its way too early to say he's out of a player of the 20's debate already. He may very well end up winning 3 mvps and 2-3 rings before it is over. Don't think Zion reaches that level. I think it's 50/50 we already saw peak Zion(sad to say but until proven otherwise).

Bro dudes literally played 1 full season chill lol

Been in the league 3 years though. That's not a good sign. I mean does he just pick up where he left off two years ago now? idk. It's hard to improve when you can't practice.

[Cavsfansince84]

Luka's great, but he needs to take a major efficiency leap to get into the Giannis/Jokic tier. Last three regular seasons...

Giannis: 31.0 PER | .626 TS% | 34.3 WS | .268 WS/48 | 10.6 BPM | +10.1 On/Off
N Jokic: 29.8 PER | .640 TS% | 40.7 WS | .268 WS/48 | 11.2 BPM | +9.7 On/Off
L Doncic: 25.9 PER | .581 TS% | 24.1 WS | .175 WS/48 | 7.8 BPM | +1.5 On/Off

Luka's last three years have been a lot closer to pre-breakout Westbrook from 11/12 to 13/14 than they have been to peak Giannis/Jokic...

RWB 11/12 to 13/14: 23.7 PER | .537 TS% | 24.8 WS | .180 WS/48 | 4.1 BPM | +2.8 On/Off

Westbrook did take a leap over the next three seasons fron 14/15 to 16/17, though I'd still put his peak a little short of Giannis/Jokic...

RWB 14/15 to 16/17: 29.1 PER | .548 TS% | 37.8 WS | .231 WS/48 | 9.1 BPM | +10.8 On/Off

I agree though we saw how he turned it on last season after he cut some weight. From about Jan on he was much improved. If the rumors about him being in much better shape this offseason while playing for his national team are true that might be all he needs.

[Dutchball97]

I think realistically he's already there on that level(with room for improvement). I'd also say its way too early to say he's out of a player of the 20's debate already. He may very well end up winning 3 mvps and 2-3 rings before it is over. Don't think Zion reaches that level. I think it's 50/50 we already saw peak Zion(sad to say but until proven otherwise).

Bro dudes literally played 1 full season chill lol

Been in the league 3 years though. That's not a good sign. I mean does he just pick up where he left off two years ago now? idk. It's hard to improve when you can't practice.

It's a fair concern but Embiid only played 31 games in his first 3 seasons, while being a year older than Zion coming into the league, and hadn't shown anything near what Zion has already done yet but he still managed to get consecutive MVP runner-ups in the last 2 seasons.

If Zion can recover from his injuries, which by the looks of recent footage does seem to be the case, I see no reason why he couldn't have a similar resurgence to Embiid.

[Mrakar]

He is already there, he just needs acolades to prove it. Problem is that he has trash team and its hard to get acolades without winning.
No way Giannis and Jokic are taking this team further than Doncic has.

[MyUniBroDavis]

I think realistically he's already there on that level(with room for improvement). I'd also say its way too early to say he's out of a player of the 20's debate already. He may very well end up winning 3 mvps and 2-3 rings before it is over. Don't think Zion reaches that level. I think it's 50/50 we already saw peak Zion(sad to say but until proven otherwise).

Bro dudes literally played 1 full season chill lol

Been in the league 3 years though. That's not a good sign. I mean does he just pick up where he left off two years ago now? idk. It's hard to improve when you can't practice.

I agree it’s not the best start but man came in after going on the 3 month Joey chestnut diet and scored with jokic level effeciency and rebound every shot he didn’t make with a team that had 3 people that could shoot the basketball, the potential is absurd.

I think the question is if a year off is gonna effect his touch around the rim maybe, but his touch around the rim is actually disgusting, more than anything else.

Like a the guy whose main draw and defining trait is his athleticism came in looking like Charles Barkley’s illegitimate son from San Antonio and put together more points per 36 minutes than 13/15 wilt seasons and scored more efficiently than Curry off being fat and rolling into people and throwing it in the air.

This man had a six pack like 2 years ago! He’s keto diet away from being an near MVP caliber player without developing much in my opinion, there was a time where he was an elite defensive prospect because of his quickness too

[jalengreen]

Bro dudes literally played 1 full season chill lol

Been in the league 3 years though. That's not a good sign. I mean does he just pick up where he left off two years ago now? idk. It's hard to improve when you can't practice.

I agree it’s not the best start but man came in after going on the 3 month Joey chestnut diet and scored with jokic level effeciency and rebound every shot he didn’t make with a team that had 3 people that could shoot the basketball, the potential is absurd.

I think the question is if a year off is gonna effect his touch around the rim maybe, but his touch around the rim is actually disgusting, more than anything else.

Like a the guy whose main draw and defining trait is his athleticism came in looking like Charles Barkley’s illegitimate son from San Antonio and put together more points per 36 minutes than 13/15 wilt seasons and scored more efficiently than Curry off being fat and rolling into people and throwing it in the air.

This man had a six pack like 2 years ago! He’s keto diet away from being an near MVP caliber player without developing much in my opinion, there was a time where he was an elite defensive prospect because of his quickness too

Read on Twitter

?s=20&t=EiV3BgCqnAI-sgm56SHJ8A

[MyUniBroDavis]

Been in the league 3 years though. That's not a good sign. I mean does he just pick up where he left off two years ago now? idk. It's hard to improve when you can't practice.

I agree it’s not the best start but man came in after going on the 3 month Joey chestnut diet and scored with jokic level effeciency and rebound every shot he didn’t make with a team that had 3 people that could shoot the basketball, the potential is absurd.

I think the question is if a year off is gonna effect his touch around the rim maybe, but his touch around the rim is actually disgusting, more than anything else.

Like a the guy whose main draw and defining trait is his athleticism came in looking like Charles Barkley’s illegitimate son from San Antonio and put together more points per 36 minutes than 13/15 wilt seasons and scored more efficiently than Curry off being fat and rolling into people and throwing it in the air.

This man had a six pack like 2 years ago! He’s keto diet away from being an near MVP caliber player without developing much in my opinion, there was a time where he was an elite defensive prospect because of his quickness too

Read on Twitter

?s=20&t=EiV3BgCqnAI-sgm56SHJ8A

OH MY GOD HE CUT OUT GUMBO

[SickMother]

He is already there, he just needs acolades to prove it. Problem is that he has trash team and its hard to get acolades without winning.
No way Giannis and Jokic are taking this team further than Doncic has.

Accolades don't prove anything, objective information does & Luka has objectively proven he is not on the same level as Giannis/Jokic.

Jokic won MVP last year even though his team won 4 fewer games than Luka's trash Mavs.

[Homer38]

Just a matter of time.He need to be in better shape and started the season much better.The mavs were under .500 after 30 games or so in the last 2 seasons and the play of Luka(who was not at a superstar level to start the season)was one of the big reason why

[jasonxxx102]

Luka absolutely has the skill and talent just needs some more time.

I don’t have Jokic and Giannis on the same level because Giannis is a beast defensively (spare me the advanced analytics on Jokic… I have eyes and he’s not an elite defender like the stats supposedly prove) and he’s also an elite shot creator.

Jokic’ gravity and otherworldly vision and feel creates a lot of shots for others but he’s not really a guy who’s gonna be able to go out there and get you buckets when nobody else is hitting.

Guys like Giannis, Steph, LeBron, etc.. can go out on any possession, doubled, tripled, whatever and go get you a bucket when the game is on the line. Haven’t seen Jokic be able to do that at the highest level.

We saw what happened in the playoffs without Murray. Jokic needs to be along side a true elite shot creator.

Luka is absolutely that guy when it comes to getting buckets and also obviously has that elite vision and feel and a great handle (with insane ability to change speed and direction)…

My main problem is that he doesn’t really play great defense and complains so damn much. Like dude… stfu and run back instead of crying to the refs every single play.

[Peregrine01]

Jokic’ gravity and otherworldly vision and feel creates a lot of shots for others but he’s not really a guy who’s gonna be able to go out there and get you buckets when nobody else is hitting.

Guys like Giannis, Steph, LeBron, etc.. can go out on any possession, doubled, tripled, whatever and go get you a bucket when the game is on the line. Haven’t seen Jokic be able to do that at the highest level.

We saw what happened in the playoffs without Murray. Jokic needs to be along side a true elite shot creator.

I'm not sure how you can say this when Jokic just put up 30 points per 75 possessions and led the league in efficiency among volume scorers by a pretty wide margin (62% eFG% and 66% TS) without his second AND third best offensive teammates. Then he went into the playoffs with the same skeleton squad and put up 34 PP75 on 64% TS against the best defender of this era and best team defense in these playoffs.

The guy is low-key the best bucket getter there is when you absolutely need one.

[bearadonisdna]

Lukas carry job is greater than Jokic only 6th seed carry job .
Jokic and Giannis living off of how metrics are inflated for center and down low players that the game is more efficient .

[jasonxxx102]

Jokic’ gravity and otherworldly vision and feel creates a lot of shots for others but he’s not really a guy who’s gonna be able to go out there and get you buckets when nobody else is hitting.

Guys like Giannis, Steph, LeBron, etc.. can go out on any possession, doubled, tripled, whatever and go get you a bucket when the game is on the line. Haven’t seen Jokic be able to do that at the highest level.

We saw what happened in the playoffs without Murray. Jokic needs to be along side a true elite shot creator.

I'm not sure how you can say this when Jokic just put up 30 points per 75 possessions and led the league in efficiency among volume scorers by a pretty wide margin (62% eFG% and 66% TS) without his second AND third best offensive teammates. Then he went into the playoffs with the same skeleton squad and put up 34 PP75 on 64% TS against the best defender of this era and best team defense in these playoffs.

The guy is low-key the best bucket getter there is when you absolutely need one.

But the bottom line is that it hasn’t translated into high level wins.

I think Jokic is amazing but he’s not gonna be on the next tier for me until he has playoff success.

You have 1 possession and you need a guy to go out and win game 7, you gonna take Jokic over Giannis or Luka? I sure wouldn’t