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Who was the better player and who had the better career?

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I have Hondo slightly ahead, but it's very close.

I have Pippen slightly ahead, but it's pretty close.

Both were similarly dominant in their respective eras (and their effectiveness came in fairly similar ways, too). Both were very important cogs in a dynasty, and have a lot of team success to their credit.
Havlicek has perhaps a marginally better longevity/durability profile.

Pippen's achievement came in a better, more competitive era, imo. And it's this last consideration that puts him slightly ahead for me.

Scottie Pippen is not close to Havlicek in achievements. Not close at all.

Stalwart wrote:Scottie Pippen is not close to Havlicek in achievements. Not close at all.

Pippen make the all-defensive team 10 times(8 as the first team) and for the most part it was all deserved.

70sFan wrote:I have Hondo slightly ahead, but it's very close.

Do you care to share why? I'm leaning Havlicek as well just curious of your reasoning

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Homer38 wrote:

Stalwart wrote:Scottie Pippen is not close to Havlicek in achievements. Not close at all.

Pippen make the all-defensive team 10 times(8 as the first team) and for the most part it was all deserved.

Havlicek make the team 8 times even though the team didn't exist for half of his career.

TT8198 wrote:

70sFan wrote:I have Hondo slightly ahead, but it's very close.

Do you care to share why? I'm leaning Havlicek as well just curious of your reasoning

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A few things:

1. Havlicek was better offensive player in my opinion. Not for his whole career, but once he reached his basketball prime he was very versatile player on that end. Great passer, outstanding off-ball player, solid shooter who didn't mind taking tough shots in heated situations. Pippen was more limited offensively in my opinion, even though he was quite good as well.

2. Hondo was clearly a better postseason performer in my opinion. I don't have the time to share data, but Havlicek improved his production in the playoffs, while Pippen usually regressed slightly.

3. Pippen was a better defender (quite clearly), but I'm quite high on Havlicek's defense. He was a versatile man defender, excellent communicator and had a great vision. His physical talent is also underrated, he often looked a bit clumsy on the court but he was big, strong and long defender with endless endurance.

70sFan wrote:

TT8198 wrote:

70sFan wrote:I have Hondo slightly ahead, but it's very close.

Do you care to share why? I'm leaning Havlicek as well just curious of your reasoning

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A few things:

1. Havlicek was better offensive player in my opinion. Not for his whole career, but once he reached his basketball prime he was very versatile player on that end. Great passer, outstanding off-ball player, solid shooter who didn't mind taking tough shots in heated situations. Pippen was more limited offensively in my opinion, even though he was quite good as well.

2. Hondo was clearly a better postseason performer in my opinion. I don't have the time to share data, but Havlicek improved his production in the playoffs, while Pippen usually regressed slightly.

3. Pippen was a better defender (quite clearly), but I'm quite high on Havlicek's defense. He was a versatile man defender, excellent communicator and had a great vision. His physical talent is also underrated, he often looked a bit clumsy on the court but he was big, strong and long defender with endless endurance.

Thanks for the elaboration ! I agree with everything you've listed. Havlicek career achievements clearly exceed Pippen's and as a player I agree that Havlicek is clearly better on the offensive end averaged more ppg and was more reliable as a primary scorer if need be. As you said Scottie has the edge defensively but Havlicek is one of the most underrated defenders in history he rarely gets mentioned when all time perimeter defenders is discussed. Havlicek is underated in general Pippen is routinely listed higher than Havlicek when ranking small fowards and while it's close I definitely think Havlicek has the edge as a player and career wise

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TT8198 wrote:

70sFan wrote:[
A few things:

1. Havlicek was better offensive player in my opinion. Not for his whole career, but once he reached his basketball prime he was very versatile player on that end. Great passer, outstanding off-ball player, solid shooter who didn't mind taking tough shots in heated situations. Pippen was more limited offensively in my opinion, even though he was quite good as well.

2. Hondo was clearly a better postseason performer in my opinion. I don't have the time to share data, but Havlicek improved his production in the playoffs, while Pippen usually regressed slightly.

3. Pippen was a better defender (quite clearly), but I'm quite high on Havlicek's defense. He was a versatile man defender, excellent communicator and had a great vision. His physical talent is also underrated, he often looked a bit clumsy on the court but he was big, strong and long defender with endless endurance.

Thanks for the elaboration ! I agree with everything you've listed. Havlicek career achievements clearly exceed Pippen's and as a player I agree that Havlicek is clearly better on the offensive end averaged more ppg and was more reliable as a primary scorer if need be. As you said Scottie has the edge defensively but Havlicek is one of the most underrated defenders in history he rarely gets mentioned when all time perimeter defenders is discussed. Havlicek is underated in general Pippen is routinely listed higher than Havlicek when ranking small fowards and while it's close I definitely think Havlicek has the edge as a player and career wise

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In 2018 we voted Havlicek as the 6th-greatest defensive SF of ALL-TIME.

trex_8063 wrote:

TT8198 wrote:

70sFan wrote:[
A few things:

1. Havlicek was better offensive player in my opinion. Not for his whole career, but once he reached his basketball prime he was very versatile player on that end. Great passer, outstanding off-ball player, solid shooter who didn't mind taking tough shots in heated situations. Pippen was more limited offensively in my opinion, even though he was quite good as well.

2. Hondo was clearly a better postseason performer in my opinion. I don't have the time to share data, but Havlicek improved his production in the playoffs, while Pippen usually regressed slightly.

3. Pippen was a better defender (quite clearly), but I'm quite high on Havlicek's defense. He was a versatile man defender, excellent communicator and had a great vision. His physical talent is also underrated, he often looked a bit clumsy on the court but he was big, strong and long defender with endless endurance.

Thanks for the elaboration ! I agree with everything you've listed. Havlicek career achievements clearly exceed Pippen's and as a player I agree that Havlicek is clearly better on the offensive end averaged more ppg and was more reliable as a primary scorer if need be. As you said Scottie has the edge defensively but Havlicek is one of the most underrated defenders in history he rarely gets mentioned when all time perimeter defenders is discussed. Havlicek is underated in general Pippen is routinely listed higher than Havlicek when ranking small fowards and while it's close I definitely think Havlicek has the edge as a player and career wise

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In 2018 we voted Havlicek as the 6th-greatest defensive SF of ALL-TIME.

Whose the 5 above him if I may ask? I'm guessing Pippen, Kawhi, and LeBron for sure I'd have Havlicek right after them 3

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TT8198 wrote:

trex_8063 wrote:In 2018 we voted Havlicek as the 6th-greatest defensive SF of ALL-TIME.

Whose the 5 above him if I may ask? I'm guessing Pippen, Kawhi, and LeBron for sure I'd have Havlicek right after them 3

Actually, at that time Kawhi was NOT one of the five ahead of him. The other two you mention, yes, plus Ron Artest, Andre Iguodala, and Shane Battier.

trex_8063 wrote:

TT8198 wrote:

trex_8063 wrote:In 2018 we voted Havlicek as the 6th-greatest defensive SF of ALL-TIME.

Whose the 5 above him if I may ask? I'm guessing Pippen, Kawhi, and LeBron for sure I'd have Havlicek right after them 3

Actually, at that time Kawhi was NOT one of the five ahead of him. The other two you mention, yes, plus Ron Artest, Andre Iguodala, and Shane Battier.

If I had to make a list mine would probably go,

1. Scottie Pippen
2. Kawhi Leonard
3. LeBron James
4. John Havlicek
5. Ron Artest

Order can be rearranged but that's my 5.


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70sFan wrote:
1. Havlicek was better offensive player in my opinion. Not for his whole career, but once he reached his basketball prime he was very versatile player on that end. Great passer, outstanding off-ball player, solid shooter who didn't mind taking tough shots in heated situations. Pippen was more limited offensively in my opinion, even though he was quite good as well.

Interesting though that he was slightly lower in TS+ even in the worse offensive era of the 60s and 70s, and despite being a better FT shooter. Later in his career, some volume considerations there, but he really wasn't at Scottie's level as a scoring threat. Obviously a very useful and versatile player for Boston, and the guy for whom the 6MOY award was basically created before he handled business with the Celtics as his team post-Russell, but I think "better offensive player" is probably a little ambitious. Pippen was an extremely adept offensive player and maybe you can argue that his offensive ability was largely driven by passing and athleticism, but it led to him scoring more effectively.

But, that brings us to...

2. Hondo was clearly a better postseason performer in my opinion. I don't have the time to share data, but Havlicek improved his production in the playoffs, while Pippen usually regressed slightly.

Yes, this. And in his prime (indeed, as a volume scorer), his raw efficiency also approached Pippen's career level.

It's an interesting comparison overall. Hondo doesn't get enough love these days, for sure.

I went into this comparison quite a bit in the last top 100 in favor of Hondo. I feel there isn't much of an argument for Pippen here given that Hondo not only was the Celtics offensive mvp on the last two title teams but then co leads the Celtics to two more titles while being an mvp caliber player on teams that won like crazy from 72-76. Then on top of that he makes a ton of def teams(though they only go back to 69) and has very good longevity. Essentially all nba caliber for roughly 13 years. He also had some absolute killer playoff series throughout the 68-75 years and developed a lot as a play maker. Basically 4 titles as a #3, 2 as a #2(or even co 1 with Russell) then 1 as a co#1 with Cowens plus another when he's past his prime. Hondo accomplished a lot more imo.

tsherkin wrote:Interesting though that he was slightly lower in TS+ even in the worse offensive era of the 60s and 70s, and despite being a better FT shooter. Later in his career, some volume considerations there, but he really wasn't at Scottie's level as a scoring threat. Obviously a very useful and versatile player for Boston, and the guy for whom the 6MOY award was basically created before he handled business with the Celtics as his team post-Russell, but I think "better offensive player" is probably a little ambitious. Pippen was an extremely adept offensive player and maybe you can argue that his offensive ability was largely driven by passing and athleticism, but it led to him scoring more effectively.

Hondo's early years hurt his overall career numbers, but once he reached his offensive prime he scored more than Pippen on comparable efficiency and he improved in the playoffs. On top of that, Havlicek's scoring skillset is simply more useful on most teams - he was an excellent off-ball player with wide range on his shot. Pippen wasn't a good shooter, he did the most damage from transition and not so efficient isolations.

I have Pippen ahead by a bit overall. I'm very high on Pip's defense, enough that I think he makes up for the gap on offense (Havlicek is obviously quite better), even with Hondo being a decent positive on that end.

Have both on my 30s (32 and 37 iirc) but, honestly, the margins between 25 to 40ish are pretty slim. Like, give +0.25 to the average Hondo season and he shoots up 10 spots.

I'm sure me being higher on Cowens than average also plays a factor when trying to balance it all out.

EDIT: Huh? People are discussing Hondo vs Pippen _on offense_? I'd think it's pretty obvious there.

70sFan wrote:Hondo's early years hurt his overall career numbers, but once he reached his offensive prime he scored more than Pippen on comparable efficiency and he improved in the playoffs.

He certainly put up volume. 67-74 was his scoring prime, for sure. But he was a 50.2% TS guy during that stretch. More particularly, he was a 98-102 TS+ player, since obviously the environment wasn't perfectly identical. 92-97 was Pippen's consistent prime, during which he was a 54.6% TS player and a 95-104 TS+ guy, mostly more like 103 (the 95 in 1993 was a bit of an outlier for him). Hondo in 1970 was a 53.3% TS player and a 104 TS+ player, but he was only ever 103 TS+ two times in his career compared to Pippen's 7.

So I don't think they generally scored on comparable efficiency, be it absolute or league relative. Hondo was good at a lot of things, and maybe with different training and such it'd be different, but he wasn't quite there as a scorer. Likely because he had better endurance than he did quickness or vert (relative to Pippen).

On top of that, Havlicek's scoring skillset is simply more useful on most teams - he was an excellent off-ball player with wide range on his shot. Pippen wasn't a good shooter, he did the most damage from transition and not so efficient isolations.

Certainly, Hondo had a better J than did Pippen, that isn't really up for debate, and he was obviously more reliable at the line. But sometimes athleticism can overcome deficiencies in a game, to a point. That's the real question between these two.

I see what you're saying, of course. A guy who can eat minutes, stay healthy and hit open jumpers is useful. Pippen had his utility as well, of course. I guess the era into which you thrust them matters. In the early/mid 90s, I'd take Pippen over Hondo. I'd think about it in the 60s as well, because the pace of the game plays into his athletic advantages, leastwise alongside Russell. As far as when Hondo was playing with Cowens, getting them to title in 74? His offense was noticeably below Pippen's prime average in terms of absolute and relative scoring efficiency. 22/6/6 alongside Cowens on what passed for a good offensive team that year (5th in the league, 98.6 ORTG), and that's really a common line for Pippen, though he was a better rebounder and played in a very different pace environment (Boston was at 110 that year). Bulls played around 89-96 possessions during the title years, though of course he was playing alongside Jordan, which changed a lot.

It's an interesting one, these two. Neither of them are real stunners as scoring threats. Both are quite versatile, ahead of their time as wing playmakers. The obvious defense. Hondo, of course, better touch and worse athleticism (though endurance is a kind of athleticism and shouldn't be ignored, as it was a major feature for him).

To me another part of it is what they do after age 32. Pippen started dealing with more injuries and doesn't ever really get out from MJ's shadow while Hondo fully rebuilds the Celtic franchise and does it whilee having dominant post seasons obviously with help from Cowens and others but he's leading them in ppg and apg throughout this period. In a vacuum I can see taking Pippen over Hondo as a #2 but in terms of career I don't think its particularly close.

Cavsfansince84 wrote:I went into this comparison quite a bit in the last top 100 in favor of Hondo. I feel there isn't much of an argument for Pippen here given that Hondo not only was the Celtics offensive mvp on the last two title teams but then co leads the Celtics to two more titles while being an mvp caliber player on teams that won like crazy from 72-76. Then on top of that he makes a ton of def teams(though they only go back to 69) and has very good longevity. Essentially all nba caliber for roughly 13 years. He also had some absolute killer playoff series throughout the 68-75 years and developed a lot as a play maker. Basically 4 titles as a #3, 2 as a #2(or even co 1 with Russell) then 1 as a co#1 with Cowens plus another when he's past his prime. Hondo accomplished a lot more imo.

russell's celtics completely unaffected by the presence or absence of his teammates. Fell like #3/#2 is disinegenous here. The celtics were really just Bill + glorified role players.

hondo was never a "co-1" with bill