RealGM

Best Defensive Big Man Between

KG, Duncan, Wallace, Mutombo, Mourning, Nate Thurmond

Think Thurmond exerted the most impact in-era for sure.

KG feels like the most complete and skilled to me in a vacuum.

Relative to era, I'd go Thurmond > Mutombo > KG and TD > Wallace > Mourning

I might think about taking Ben Wallace's peak. He was a lot more versatile than Mourning and Mutombo, and a better pure rim protector than Duncan or Garnett.

But all these other players did it for so much longer than Wallace, at least in a large role (Big Ben stayed a sneaky monster defensive in small roles for the rest of his career, basically). He only has 7 seasons of playing big minutes, so some of these guys have double that at a similarly elite level.

Also all these guys are so much taller than Wallace. There's this hole in Wallace's game that you can see when watching tape. If you catch him flat-footed, he's a 6'7" dude instead of a 6'11" dude, and he's giving up easier buckets. I know this sounds obvious, but it's important to understand the smaller margin for error he had. He makes up for it with how insanely quick his hops were, and how much of a terror he was rotating. Ben could really tag ball handlers and rotate into the paint for high-level rim protection and keep pace with a ball being passed around. I think some people assume Ben was just a strong athlete, but he had very impressive anticipation skills too and was cat-like in his defensive rotations.

I could order these guys in so many ways. KG was the most versatile and probably highest motor. DK was maybe the best pure rim protector/obstacle. Thurmond has the best combination of size/strength and genius feet and hands. He's probably the best man-to-man defender here. Duncan played the most mistake-free brand of defense.

One guy I feel I know less about is Mourning. His sheer rim protection and shot blocking ability is fresh in my mind, but could anyone elaborate on how Mourning was in other facets?

Tim Duncan and then we can start arguing who is next.

Duncan
Deke
Wallace
KG
Thurmond
Mourning

This feels right. If someone wants to argue Wallace over Deke, fine. Don't see any arguments for KG over the three elite centers and don't see any arguments for Thurmond/Mourning over KG.

Texas Chuck wrote:Tim Duncan and then we can start arguing who is next.

Duncan
Deke
Wallace
KG
Thurmond
Mourning

This feels right. If someone wants to argue Wallace over Deke, fine. Don't see any arguments for KG over the three elite centers and don't see any arguments for Thurmond/Mourning over KG.

I don't think it's nearly as clear as you believe. I would probably have Mutombo and Duncan fighting for the number one spot, but then I'd take Thurmond over Wallace quite clearly. Why do you think Wallace is better than Nate?

70sFan wrote:

Texas Chuck wrote:Tim Duncan and then we can start arguing who is next.

Duncan
Deke
Wallace
KG
Thurmond
Mourning

This feels right. If someone wants to argue Wallace over Deke, fine. Don't see any arguments for KG over the three elite centers and don't see any arguments for Thurmond/Mourning over KG.

I don't think it's nearly as clear as you believe. I would probably have Mutombo and Duncan fighting for the number one spot, but then I'd take Thurmond over Wallace quite clearly. Why do you think Wallace is better than Nate?

Because team defense is more valuable than individual post defense primarily. If we are talking about m2m defense Thurmond definitely moves way up the list. His only competitor at that point is Timmy. But I don't believe he was the help defender some of those other guys were.

Jaivl wrote:Think Thurmond exerted the most impact in-era for sure.

KG feels like the most complete and skilled to me in a vacuum.

Relative to era, I'd go Thurmond > Mutombo > KG and TD > Wallace > Mourning

Based on what? I'm curious because while I see Thurmond have great individual hth matchups against some of the greatest centers in history, I'm not seeing great team impact numbers.

He never led his team to best in the league defensively (twice reaching 2nd) though he did have Russell in the league his first 5-6 years, and the Warriors actually improved defensively when they dealt him for Cliff Ray. Not seeing this massive impact though he is still an ATG on the defensive end.

Texas Chuck wrote:

70sFan wrote:

Texas Chuck wrote:Tim Duncan and then we can start arguing who is next.

Duncan
Deke
Wallace
KG
Thurmond
Mourning

This feels right. If someone wants to argue Wallace over Deke, fine. Don't see any arguments for KG over the three elite centers and don't see any arguments for Thurmond/Mourning over KG.

I don't think it's nearly as clear as you believe. I would probably have Mutombo and Duncan fighting for the number one spot, but then I'd take Thurmond over Wallace quite clearly. Why do you think Wallace is better than Nate?

Because team defense is more valuable than individual post defense primarily. If we are talking about m2m defense Thurmond definitely moves way up the list. His only competitor at that point is Timmy. But I don't believe he was the help defender some of those other guys were.

I agree tht team defense is more important, but I don't understand why people always assume that Thurmond's help defense was worse than other great centers. We don't have massive amount of Thurmond footage, but from what I've seen he didn't have any notable weakness in that aspect. He was elite shotblocker, very mobile and active as well. I'm not saying he's clearly better than Wallace, but I don't see this gap.

penbeast0 wrote:

Jaivl wrote:Think Thurmond exerted the most impact in-era for sure.

KG feels like the most complete and skilled to me in a vacuum.

Relative to era, I'd go Thurmond > Mutombo > KG and TD > Wallace > Mourning

Based on what? I'm curious because while I see Thurmond have great individual hth matchups against some of the greatest centers in history, I'm not seeing great team impact numbers.

He never led his team to best in the league defensively (twice reaching 2nd) though he did have Russell in the league his first 5-6 years, and the Warriors actually improved defensively when they dealt him for Cliff Ray. Not seeing this massive impact though he is still an ATG on the defensive end.

1. Thurmond always missed a lot of games, which means that his team had a tougher time to reach top level. Let's take a look at Warriors points allowed with Nate and without him (missed more than 10 games):

1967: 117.5 with, 127.7 without
1968: 113.4 with, 124.6 without
1970: 111.9 with, 119.6 without
1974: 105.3 with, 112.5 without

It's clear that Warriors defense collapsed without Thurmond. We can also go with more advanced WOWY numbers and Thurmond looks nothing short of incredible in all I have seen.

2. Warriors didn't really improve after replacing him with Ray. As I mentioned, Thurmond missed 20 games during 1973/74 RS. Assuming that SFW played at the same pace with and without Thurmond, it would give us such results:

1974 Warriors: 98.4 DRtg, +0.7 rDRtg

1974 with Nate: 96.7 DRtg, -1.0 rDRtg
1974 without Nate: 103.3 DRtg, +5.6 rDRtg

1975 Warriors: 97.3 DRtg, -0.4 rDRtg

If you combine that data with 1973 Warriors results (94.0 DRtg, -2.8 rDRtg), I don't think we can say that Warriors actually got better Ray instead of Nate.

Thanks, didn't know that!

Interesting to see KG is winning this clearly

In order:
KG
Mutombo
B. Wallace
Duncan
Thurmond
Mourning

Johnny Tomala wrote:In order:
KG
Mutombo
B. Wallace
Duncan
Thurmond
Mourning

I'd probably rank Wallace a bit lower but other than that this would be my order as well.

Johnny Tomala wrote:In order:
KG
Mutombo
B. Wallace
Duncan
Thurmond
Mourning

I always thought KG and Duncan were closer than that...

mdonnelly1989 wrote:

Johnny Tomala wrote:In order:
KG
Mutombo
B. Wallace
Duncan
Thurmond
Mourning

I always thought KG and Duncan were closer than that...

It's a ranking...it doesn't indicate gap in ability.

HeartBreakKid wrote:

mdonnelly1989 wrote:

Johnny Tomala wrote:In order:
KG
Mutombo
B. Wallace
Duncan
Thurmond
Mourning

I always thought KG and Duncan were closer than that...

It's a ranking...it doesn't indicate gap in ability.

Given for the fact that there is very little that seaparates them that makes sense.

KG for this era
Thurmond for big boys era
Duncan/Wallace for any era

I can't decide between Duncan and Mutombo for best.

Duncan/Mutombo tier 1

Garnett/Wallace tier 2

Mourning tier 3

I never saw Thurmond so I can't rate him.....