RealGM

There's been alot of dicussion lately surrounding NBA only all-time lists, but how different would your lists look if things like college, euroleague*, olympics, etc. were valued as well. How much would your list change? What would your all-time list look like?

High-school and college basketball (USA, other countries' systems don't count apparently) suck to anybody that has a pair of eyes, so probably about the same, slight boost to international players due to FIBA/Euroleague being good enough quality but not comparable to NBA either.

Maybe some early Globetrotters or college players when pro ball wasn't the end all be all yet would deserve a mention as well as well as a couple international guys but I don't see why high school/college accomplishments would change anything for the guys already among the elite of the NBA.

Kareem would be my GOAT (over my NBA GOAT, LeBron) due to his college career. Other players that come to mind who would slide up due to college would be Oscar, Ewing, Walton. Of course Magic, Bird, Duncan, Russell, etc all had great collegiate careers too but I’m not sure what difference it’d make in my rankings.

I wouldn’t put really any noticeable stock into the Olympics for Americans except for a case here and there like Durant. Nor high school

It's already difficult to compare players from different decades. When it's different leagues, it becomes even more difficult.

But the first name that comes to mind is Arvydas Sabonis. I never saw him play in his pre-NBA days (too young) and have only seen videos if at all. But hearing former teammates, coaches, etc talk about him in his prime, I guess he really was a once in a century talent. I heard a podcast with Detlef Schrempf at one point where he and the podcast host drafted teams with former teammates of Det (Schrempf played with Sabonis on the Blazers). And Det picked Sabonis No. 1 overall, hands down. They played against each other in tournaments with their youth national teams. Schrempf played with guys like Pippen, Reggie, Payton,... during his NBA career and there was no doubt in his mind that Sabonis was the best of all of them without question.

I would have loved to see a parallel universe where Sabonis played his entire professional career in the NBA. I could imagine he would be considered top 15-20 all-time today. In this universe he isn't more than an afterthought for people who only watched NBA.

I take all levels of basketball into account as long as I think the player is playing at a world class level. I don't really get why people care about Kareem doing good in HS and things like that.

As for my list not much changes except Sabonis gets a big boost and Manu gets a solid rub as well for his Olympic play. I suppose more confirmation of the Gasol brothers goodness in addition.

I don't know enough about African-Americans during their segregated era to rank them otherwise they'd be the other contenders who would benefit from this criteria.

Proxy wrote:There's been alot of dicussion lately surrounding NBA only all-time lists, but how different would your lists look if things like college, highschool, olympics, etc. were valued as well. How much would your list change? What would your all-time list look like?

I actually am inclined to think more like this, particularly historically.

Sabonis was in our Top 50 when we did the Top 100 list back in 2006. After that there was more explicit focus on the NBA.

If I’m taking about historical importance going back to the deep history before the NBA things like college and even high school can matter.

Even in modern times I think the Olympics make for a significant achievement for non-Americans, and I think people drastically underrate it was that Ginobili led Argentina to the Gold and then proceeded to be the best player on the NBA champion the following playoffs. If the basketball had an equivalent to soccer’s Ballon d’Or, he’d surely win it for that season.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

HeartBreakKid wrote:I take all levels of basketball into account as long as I think the player is playing at a world class level. I don't really get why people care about Kareem doing good in HS and things like that.

As for my list not much changes except Sabonis gets a big boost and Manu gets a solid rub as well for his Olympic play. I suppose more confirmation of the Gasol brothers goodness in addition.

I don't know enough about African-Americans during their segregated era to rank them otherwise they'd be the other contenders who would benefit from this criteria.

Having looked into the earlier eras honestly the main struggle I’d have with lists like we make is putting anyone pre-Mikan, regardless of race, on the list.

Beyond that the main difference between Black vs White basketball was the way a couple Black teams (Rens and Globe Trotters) ended up monopolizing their talent because the leagues were run by whites who didn’t let the Blacks in (along with the general reluctance to include many Blacks at big-time college programs).

Other Black teams existed, but over time effectively became farm teams to the big 2.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Proxy wrote:There's been alot of dicussion lately surrounding NBA only all-time lists, but how different would your lists look if things like college, highschool, olympics, etc. were valued as well. How much would your list change? What would your all-time list look like?

Well, to be clear, my all-time list is not NBA-only; it includes all major North American pro basketball leagues going back as far as the 1946-47 season.......as I think is the case for many here (when we did the last Top 100 Project, for example, it was stipulated that ABA, BAA, and NBL [back as far as '47] were to all be considered).

That said, if things like college, highschool, olympics, foreign leagues, etc, were all to be included, that would certainly change things. I mean, I think I would weight achievement in each of those places substantially lower in my consideration [highschool in particular], but it would still change things.

I suspect that Kareem, Russell, and Wilt would all reside in my top 4-5 [possibly would even be the top 3 in some order], if I were adding in consideration of highschool/college/olympics. LeBron may not retain his #1 status on my ATL.

Someone like Manu Ginobili would also rise in the ranks a bit. The great mystery that is Arvydas Sabonis would likely climb VERY far. Luis Scola played pro in Spain for like 9 years before joining the NBA iirc [then I think had another year or two AFTER his NBA career], so he may end up being a noteworthy player on my extended list.

Yeah, it would change things a bit.

The title says "pro basketball" but the OP says "college, highschool"

I'm confused.

Ein Sof wrote:The title says "pro basketball" but the OP says "college, highschool"

I'm confused.

Yeah I just came up with a random title cuz it was late at night, the post is what I meant tho lol my b

Proxy wrote:

Ein Sof wrote:The title says "pro basketball" but the OP says "college, highschool"

I'm confused.

Yeah I just came up with a random title cuz it was late at night, the post is what I meant tho lol my b

Okay but I still don't understand why beating highschool kids is supposed to matter next to NBA performance.

Like... where is your cutoff point?

What if your local YMCA league hands out awards like that $18 WNBA All-Star award?

Are those more or less legit than LeMickey's rings...?

Ein Sof wrote:

Proxy wrote:

Ein Sof wrote:The title says "pro basketball" but the OP says "college, highschool"

I'm confused.

Yeah I just came up with a random title cuz it was late at night, the post is what I meant tho lol my b

Okay but I still don't understand why beating highschool kids is supposed to matter next to NBA performance.

Like... where is your cutoff point?

What if your local YMCA league hands out awards like that $18 WNBA All-Star award?

Are those more or less legit than LeMickey's rings...?

So don't count highschool if you don't want. Or discount it to the point of being near-negligible. OP doesn't presume to tell you how to structure your own criteria.


And the $18 trophy thing is false viral crap, btw.

If we are just talking as a basketball player, I would vote for Kareem. He had a better college career than MJ and LeBron's was non-existent. If "all levels" means as a player, coach and front office executive, then Jerry West would be up there (MJ worked in the Hornets' front office before going into ownership but never coached).

Samurai wrote:If we are just talking as a basketball player, I would vote for Kareem. He had a better college career than MJ and LeBron's was non-existent. If "all levels" means as a player, coach and front office executive, then Jerry West would be up there (MJ worked in the Hornets' front office before going into ownership but never coached).

Isnt MJ a horrible owner

MyUniBroDavis wrote:

Samurai wrote:If we are just talking as a basketball player, I would vote for Kareem. He had a better college career than MJ and LeBron's was non-existent. If "all levels" means as a player, coach and front office executive, then Jerry West would be up there (MJ worked in the Hornets' front office before going into ownership but never coached).

Isnt MJ a horrible owner

I figure that is for each poster to decide, just as they have to make their own opinions player "X" is as a player or coach "Y" is as a coach. But at least MJ is an owner, good or bad, which is a level most of the other contenders for the All Time list haven't achieved.

Samurai wrote:

MyUniBroDavis wrote:

Samurai wrote:If we are just talking as a basketball player, I would vote for Kareem. He had a better college career than MJ and LeBron's was non-existent. If "all levels" means as a player, coach and front office executive, then Jerry West would be up there (MJ worked in the Hornets' front office before going into ownership but never coached).

Isnt MJ a horrible owner

I figure that is for each poster to decide, just as they have to make their own opinions player "X" is as a player or coach "Y" is as a coach. But at least MJ is an owner, good or bad, which is a level most of the other contenders for the All Time list haven't achieved.

I mean hornets fans despise him for being cheap and he’s notorious in that regard