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Which duo would you rather build a new team around in today's league?

Ya, I don't see Kobe being in love with the idea of playing next to one of the few wings in the history of the nba who is a better scorer than he is and who pretty much prevents him from winning any scoring titles and I don't think KD would enjoy it either. That's just disaster written all over it by year 4 or 5. Give me LBJ+Reggie.

KD Kobe. Reggie is just too far behind

Cavsfansince84 wrote:Ya, I don't see Kobe being in love with the idea of playing next to one of the few wings in the history of the nba who is a better scorer than he is and who pretty much prevents him from winning any scoring titles and I don't think KD would enjoy it either. That's just disaster written all over it by year 4 or 5. Give me LBJ+Reggie.

Why do you think Reggie Miller would enjoy playing next to a player significantly better than him who will get all the credit?

HeartBreakKid wrote:

Cavsfansince84 wrote:Ya, I don't see Kobe being in love with the idea of playing next to one of the few wings in the history of the nba who is a better scorer than he is and who pretty much prevents him from winning any scoring titles and I don't think KD would enjoy it either. That's just disaster written all over it by year 4 or 5. Give me LBJ+Reggie.

Why do you think Reggie Miller would enjoy playing next to a player significantly better than him who will get all the credit?

3 reasons:
1. Reggie wasn't a superstar anyhow ie I don't think he'd have the same delusions of grandeur that Kobe/KD would
2. LeBron's skill set makes Reggie better and easier for him to score
3. I think Reggie was pretty old school in terms of winning trumping everything else

Cavsfansince84 wrote:

HeartBreakKid wrote:

Cavsfansince84 wrote:Ya, I don't see Kobe being in love with the idea of playing next to one of the few wings in the history of the nba who is a better scorer than he is and who pretty much prevents him from winning any scoring titles and I don't think KD would enjoy it either. That's just disaster written all over it by year 4 or 5. Give me LBJ+Reggie.

Why do you think Reggie Miller would enjoy playing next to a player significantly better than him who will get all the credit?

3 reasons:
1. Reggie wasn't a superstar anyhow ie I don't think he'd have the same delusions of grandeur that Kobe/KD would
2. LeBron's skill set makes Reggie better and easier for him to score
3. I think Reggie was pretty old school in terms of winning trumping everything else

Reggie Miller very much sees himself as a top player, and his opinion is what would matter.

If what you're saying is true then why didn't Reggie Miller join another team with better players?


Durant and Bryant actually have played with other superstars and won titles regardless of any drama. Reggie Miller has said many times he did not want to join other teams to play with other superstars. So why would you think Reggie Miller would have no ego but Durant and Bryant would?

This is too close to call. Damn good comparison, cant decide.

HeartBreakKid wrote:
Reggie Miller very much sees himself as a top player, and his opinion is what would matter.

If what you're saying is true then why didn't Reggie Miller join another team with better players?


Durant and Bryant actually have played with other superstars and won titles regardless of any drama. Reggie Miller has said many times he did not want to join other teams to play with other superstars. So why would you think Reggie Miller would have no ego but Durant and Bryant would?

If anything that just proves my point about Reggie sticking with the team that drafted him and making it work. That's how I see it. Him and LeBron would have to be on a team that's terrible since you know LeBron is going #1 overall. From there I think he'd be fine with sort of being in LeBron's shadow if it means they quickly become a top 5 team in the league which they probably would. That's my view. I'd go with LeBron/Reggie. I think both Kobe and KD are terrible leaders(though KD does ok being passive) and would butt heads until one if not both left. Kobe without Phil to rein him in and KD getting offended and wanting out. I don't think it would work.

Reggie/LeBron are better defensively & a more complimentary fit on offense with LBJ's playmaking & Reggie's off-ball shooting prowess.

KD/Kobe pairing gives diminishing returns with two score first, ball dominant wings who don't offer nearly as much playmaking or defense comparatively.

Kobe (104 career | 107 peak TS+) is also significantly lagging in scoring efficiency compared to LeBron (108 career | 120 peak TS+), Durant (113 career | 121 peak TS+) & Reggie (116 career | 122 peak TS+).

One of these is not like the other…

Even if Kobe & KD wouldn't be my ideal choice, and admittedly kind of redundant, they're both, at worst, top 15-20 players/talents ever. Reggie is SO far below that there's no way you could justify passing up two significantly better players in this scenario. LeBron's the best player of the group, and he & Reggie would be a great fit, but imo the disparity is too great here that I have to roll with talent over fit.

RoyceDa59 wrote:One of these is not like the other…

Yeah, LeBron.

C'mon now! Kobe-KD all day!

RoyceDa59 wrote:One of these is not like the other…

Honestly you can even say it's Durant. He's probably the worst Playoff performer of the four as a no. 1 option (i.e. outside of his GSW years).

HeartBreakKid wrote:

Cavsfansince84 wrote:

HeartBreakKid wrote:
Why do you think Reggie Miller would enjoy playing next to a player significantly better than him who will get all the credit?

3 reasons:
1. Reggie wasn't a superstar anyhow ie I don't think he'd have the same delusions of grandeur that Kobe/KD would
2. LeBron's skill set makes Reggie better and easier for him to score
3. I think Reggie was pretty old school in terms of winning trumping everything else

Reggie Miller very much sees himself as a top player, and his opinion is what would matter.

If what you're saying is true then why didn't Reggie Miller join another team with better players?


Durant and Bryant actually have played with other superstars and won titles regardless of any drama. Reggie Miller has said many times he did not want to join other teams to play with other superstars. So why would you think Reggie Miller would have no ego but Durant and Bryant would?

I think playing with LeBron wouldn't really have a negative impact on Reggie's shot taking volume. He'd likely score more efficiently and his overall scoring would improve. I mean, look at 2017 Kyrie, he was taking almost 20 FGA/G.

Cavsfansince84 wrote:Ya, I don't see Kobe being in love with the idea of playing next to one of the few wings in the history of the nba who is a better scorer than he is and who pretty much prevents him from winning any scoring titles and I don't think KD would enjoy it either. That's just disaster written all over it by year 4 or 5. Give me LBJ+Reggie.

Well, I disagree with this on every level. Kobe didn't have a problem with Shaq getting all the glory or even about whose team it was... until 2 very important things happened:

1) Shaq became super lazy and wasn't pulling his weight but still wanted to be the team's alpha and paid like it too.
2) Shaq said something really stupid. Some reporter asked Shaq about Penny and he said "Kobe is essentially Penny", or something like that... which was an insult to Kobe for multiple reasons. One, he was a better player than Penny. Two, they were currently team-mates. Three, he'd helped Shaq win three titles. Such a dumb thing to say, and typical of a dumbass like Shaq. Shaq also never gave Kobe credit in other interviews. If he was ever asked about Kobe, the only correct answer should have been that Kobe was the best back-court player, that he (Shaq) was the best front court player, and that they were the best duo in all of NBA history. Until then, Kobe hadn't even cared about not being in the MVP race despite playing at an equal level to Duncan, KG, AI, McGrady, etc... but after that, he wanted out to make his own team.

Kobe never played with a back-court player at KD's level. I think he'd relish the opportunity and the space he'd get from it, and I think KD would also. KD put up with Russ... he put aside his ego to join lesser players than Kobe when he joined GSW... and he looks up to Kobe too. I've only heard him speak with respect about Kobe TBH. They'd kill it together although they might try to one-up each other on the court, lol.

Anyway, Lebron-Reggie isn't gonna be able to do diddly squat against them in a playoff series.

No take on the overall debate here but ...

HeartBreakKid wrote:

Cavsfansince84 wrote:

HeartBreakKid wrote:
Why do you think Reggie Miller would enjoy playing next to a player significantly better than him who will get all the credit?

3 reasons:
1. Reggie wasn't a superstar anyhow ie I don't think he'd have the same delusions of grandeur that Kobe/KD would
2. LeBron's skill set makes Reggie better and easier for him to score
3. I think Reggie was pretty old school in terms of winning trumping everything else

Reggie Miller very much sees himself as a top player, and his opinion is what would matter.

I don't know too much on what former players believe because I don't tend to follow that side of the media and don't massively care.

That said I'm fairly sure there's an Open Court about a new top 50 or extension thereof and Chris Webber (a guy who most here would feel is a clearly worse player) aggressively pushes for a spot for himself and gets it. And Miller could do the same ... and he just lets it float by. Could be editing. Could be savvy: "I'm not going to publicly push hard for myself" and it's only one instance. I could be misremembering.

HeartBreakKid wrote:If what you're saying is true then why didn't Reggie Miller join another team with better players?

I don't understand why "Didn't move teams" would necessarily counter any of the above points. But simply the probable reason he didn't join another team is the same as less movement in general for high end players then. No limit on contract length (I don't think, based off Magic's 25 year deal, some long rookie deals in the 90s), no individual player max, softer cap and absence of luxury taxes allowing for more renegotiation so players didn't hit the market.

HeartBreakKid wrote:Durant and Bryant actually have played with other superstars and won titles regardless of any drama. Reggie Miller has said many times he did not want to join other teams to play with other superstars. So why would you think Reggie Miller would have no ego but Durant and Bryant would?

As above I don't follow this stuff so I don't know what Miller has said (nor whether it was stuff at the time or after the fact; whether it was "I want to be the star" or the "I don't like 'teaming up'" nonsense that just ignores how different the market for players is etc and is fine with non-FA "superteams"/collections of talent and thus not necessarily a block to playing with other superstars) ...

That said:
- I think Durant gets too much heat for going to GSW
- GSW core have shown they can win (and be historically elite) with or without him (which isn't to say he wasn't valuable)
- fairly in prime Miller didn't require overwhelming offensive primacy. He peaked at 25.8 usage (RS) in '96 (he was behind Smits that year, and adjacent to Ricky Pierce, closer to Eddie Johnson than to Smits). By '98 he was 5.3 behind Smits (23.9 to 29.2). So his playstyle doesn't require the ball or a ton of shots.

So again ... not an expert on what ex-pros say ...this seems to rest a lot on Miller being unable to accept largely the same/similar role, the same usage etc just with a better player than him ... in general that would seem unlikely and awfully self-destructive ... maybe he is/was.

Owly wrote:No take on the overall debate here but ...

HeartBreakKid wrote:

Cavsfansince84 wrote:
3 reasons:
1. Reggie wasn't a superstar anyhow ie I don't think he'd have the same delusions of grandeur that Kobe/KD would
2. LeBron's skill set makes Reggie better and easier for him to score
3. I think Reggie was pretty old school in terms of winning trumping everything else

Reggie Miller very much sees himself as a top player, and his opinion is what would matter.

I don't know too much on what former players believe because I don't tend to follow that side of the media and don't massively care.

That said I'm fairly sure there's an Open Court about a new top 50 or extension thereof and Chris Webber (a guy who most here would feel is a clearly worse player) aggressively pushes for a spot for himself and gets it. And Miller could do the same ... and he just lets it float by. Could be editing. Could be savvy: "I'm not going to publicly push hard for myself" and it's only one instance. I could be misremembering.

HeartBreakKid wrote:If what you're saying is true then why didn't Reggie Miller join another team with better players?

I don't understand why "Didn't move teams" would necessarily counter any of the above points. But simply the probable reason he didn't join another team is the same as less movement in general for high end players then. No limit on contract length (I don't think, based off Magic's 25 year deal, some long rookie deals in the 90s), no individual player max, softer cap and absence of luxury taxes allowing for more renegotiation so players didn't hit the market.

HeartBreakKid wrote:Durant and Bryant actually have played with other superstars and won titles regardless of any drama. Reggie Miller has said many times he did not want to join other teams to play with other superstars. So why would you think Reggie Miller would have no ego but Durant and Bryant would?

As above I don't follow this stuff so I don't know what Miller has said (nor whether it was stuff at the time or after the fact; whether it was "I want to be the star" or the "I don't like 'teaming up'" nonsense that just ignores how different the market for players is etc and is fine with non-FA "superteams"/collections of talent and thus not necessarily a block to playing with other superstars) ...

That said:
- I think Durant gets too much heat for going to GSW
- GSW core have shown they can win (and be historically elite) with or without him (which isn't to say he wasn't valuable)
- fairly in prime Miller didn't require overwhelming offensive primacy. He peaked at 25.8 usage (RS) in '96 (he was behind Smits that year, and adjacent to Ricky Pierce, closer to Eddie Johnson than to Smits). By '98 he was 5.3 behind Smits (23.9 to 29.2). So his playstyle doesn't require the ball or a ton of shots.

So again ... not an expert on what ex-pros say ...this seems to rest a lot on Miller being unable to accept largely the same/similar role, the same usage etc just with a better player than him ... in general that would seem unlikely and awfully self-destructive ... maybe he is/was.

"3. I think Reggie was pretty old school in terms of winning trumping everything else"

Reggie Miller choosing to stay in Indiana instead of joining a more star studded team would go against that. He absolutely could have left Indiana during his tenure under that CBA. Miller did not have a 25 year contract, he had contracts of comparable length today, 4 year contracts etc. Regardless if he signed a contract or not, he could demand a trade as well.


Reggie Miller said he did not want to join other stars, and specifically said things like he wanted to be the one that beat Michael Jordan. He also said he took pride in staying with one team and having his own team - and given the actions of what actually happened it doesn't sound far fetched. He said these statements around the time the Miami Heat signed Lebron James.

I am not saying that Reggie Miller is a cancerous player. I am saying it makes little sense to say Durant and Bryant, two players who literally played with other MVPs would not play with each other due to attitude reasons, but Reggie Miller, a player who never did that and has said things expressing he would prefer not to would guarantee to have zero ego about it.

It feels like the real Reggie Miller is getting gamefied into the PC comparison version of him - where we as a community see him as a 2nd option guy who would gladly be someone's Scottie Pippen since that is his ideal role - which isn't what he actually was in real life from his perspective and his peers. He was seen as a top star, regardless if he was that good or not, as was someone like Chris Webber. Reggier Miller did not see himself as Klay Thompson.

HeartBreakKid wrote:

Owly wrote:No take on the overall debate here but ...

HeartBreakKid wrote:
Reggie Miller very much sees himself as a top player, and his opinion is what would matter.

I don't know too much on what former players believe because I don't tend to follow that side of the media and don't massively care.

That said I'm fairly sure there's an Open Court about a new top 50 or extension thereof and Chris Webber (a guy who most here would feel is a clearly worse player) aggressively pushes for a spot for himself and gets it. And Miller could do the same ... and he just lets it float by. Could be editing. Could be savvy: "I'm not going to publicly push hard for myself" and it's only one instance. I could be misremembering.

HeartBreakKid wrote:If what you're saying is true then why didn't Reggie Miller join another team with better players?

I don't understand why "Didn't move teams" would necessarily counter any of the above points. But simply the probable reason he didn't join another team is the same as less movement in general for high end players then. No limit on contract length (I don't think, based off Magic's 25 year deal, some long rookie deals in the 90s), no individual player max, softer cap and absence of luxury taxes allowing for more renegotiation so players didn't hit the market.

HeartBreakKid wrote:Durant and Bryant actually have played with other superstars and won titles regardless of any drama. Reggie Miller has said many times he did not want to join other teams to play with other superstars. So why would you think Reggie Miller would have no ego but Durant and Bryant would?

As above I don't follow this stuff so I don't know what Miller has said (nor whether it was stuff at the time or after the fact; whether it was "I want to be the star" or the "I don't like 'teaming up'" nonsense that just ignores how different the market for players is etc and is fine with non-FA "superteams"/collections of talent and thus not necessarily a block to playing with other superstars) ...

That said:
- I think Durant gets too much heat for going to GSW
- GSW core have shown they can win (and be historically elite) with or without him (which isn't to say he wasn't valuable)
- fairly in prime Miller didn't require overwhelming offensive primacy. He peaked at 25.8 usage (RS) in '96 (he was behind Smits that year, and adjacent to Ricky Pierce, closer to Eddie Johnson than to Smits). By '98 he was 5.3 behind Smits (23.9 to 29.2). So his playstyle doesn't require the ball or a ton of shots.

So again ... not an expert on what ex-pros say ...this seems to rest a lot on Miller being unable to accept largely the same/similar role, the same usage etc just with a better player than him ... in general that would seem unlikely and awfully self-destructive ... maybe he is/was.

"3. I think Reggie was pretty old school in terms of winning trumping everything else"

This is someone elses quote.

HeartBreakKid wrote:Reggie Miller choosing to stay in Indiana instead of joining a more star studded team would go against that. He absolutely could have left Indiana during his tenure under that CBA. Miller did not have a 25 year contract, he had contracts of comparable length today, 4 year contracts etc. Regardless if he signed a contract or not, he could demand a trade as well.

1) It was nowhere stated that he couldn't leave. But it would have been harder, the teams he was on could so far as I can tell always offer more money, could [if he wanted] often prevent him from getting to the end of his contract etc. A player can make a trade demand. A team doesn't have to grant it. Unless he was willing to breach his contract it's hard to force his way out and harder back then.

And fwiw tarnishes his his reputation which is not necessarily an alpha thing (cf: Stockton) and thus was missed by both the "winning trumps everything" and "need to be the star" arguments.

HeartBreakKid wrote:Reggie Miller said he did not want to join other stars, and specifically said things like he wanted to be the one that beat Michael Jordan. He also said he took pride in staying with one team and having his own team - and given the actions of what actually happened it doesn't sound far fetched. He said these statements around the time the Miami Heat signed Lebron James.

So per the above this is post decision backlash stuff about how a team is formed. I don't generally care about or pay attention this sort of stuff. Fwiw in that context it sounds like it's about the how the team is formed not the "who" he'd be willing to play with.

I don't know the context of what he apparently said but if he talked about it as a game of one on one and meant it then he's dumb (mainly for thinking of the game as one on one, not great at the margins for thinking he beats MJ one-on-one).

HeartBreakKid wrote:I am not saying that Reggie Miller is a cancerous player. I am saying it makes little sense to say Durant and Bryant, two players who literally played with other MVPs would not play with each other due to attitude reasons, but Reggie Miller, a player who never did that and has said things expressing he would prefer not to would guarantee to have zero ego about it.

1) Durant chose to do so, then abandoned it when he wasn't the clear alpha and "credit" leader. Otherwise it has always been his team.

2) Kobe did so joining as a teenager then chafed at non centrepiece status, had poor relations with Shaq and multiple Lakers and may have been involved in the X cents on the dollar trade of Shaq and the moving on of Phil Jackson.
And these are guys with career usages north of 30 (Bryant in prime much higher; Durant deflated in GSW which he moved on from). Neither is averse to an iso. You do get where the idea that these two styles and egos could clash comes from right?

3) You keep bringing up the quotes, but the paraphrasings you have offered have mostly been about how the team was built not "I must be the alpha". It would be that latter version that would justify him being a problem with a better player and make him arguably somewhat - in your phrasing - "cancerous", or problematic.

4) I certainly haven't made any "guarantee" and I would guess no others have (though I haven't read back closely). If they have they are certainly wrong to do so as they cannot know this.

HeartBreakKid wrote:It feels like the real Reggie Miller is getting gamefied into the PC comparison version of him - where we as a community see him as a 2nd option guy who would gladly be someone's Scottie Pippen since that is his ideal role - which isn't what he actually was in real life from his perspective and his peers. He was seen as a top star, regardless if he was that good or not, as was someone like Chris Webber. Reggier Miller did not see himself as Klay Thompson.

I'm not all in on the Miller train here in terms of how good he was (more conservative on playoff weighting than most).

Would disagree that he was "seen as a top star". He made 3 all-NBA 3rd teams (never first team, never second team - nor was he ever top 10 in voting shares and denied by positional logjam); it seems he's at 0.03 career MVP shares and has fewer first place ballots (obviously zero from the above) than Calvin Ransey; he was a five time all star. None of this suggests to me a perception as a "top star".

Again "gladly" seems to be an entirely unverifiable and thus something I wouldn't assert or support. "Be someone's Scottie Pippen" isn't really something I'd argue for either. My position has been that he can continue to be his team's Reggie Miller alongside a better player.

Fwiw, just googled stuff relating to any Reggie potentially leaving. First thing I read included ....

"I couldn't do it, because of all the tears I shed in Indiana, with that fan base," Miller said. "We cried together on all those hurtful Knicks losses, Bulls losses, Lakers losses in the finals. It wouldn't be fair for me to be on a podium or a stage poppin' (bubbly) because I won my one championship. In Indiana, we grew up together, we had the heartaches together. I can't be sipping champagne and getting a ring (when) I didn't do it for y'all. That's just my mentality. That's my thinking. I'm not saying it's right. People on Twitter will go crazy that I didn't win a championship. OK, I'm cool with that. But at least I went down swinging and fighting. That's what I'm more proud of."

https://indystar.com/story/sports/nba/pacers/2022/04/27/pacers-reggie-miller-retirement-celtics-nba-playoffs/9560044002/

Desire not to go elsewhere here framed within a "we" identity, "gr[o]w[ing] up together" with the Pacers and fans. Not an "I couldn't stand not being the star". Again of course I think it would seem dumb, bad PR to express an "I had to be the star" mentality so maybe that's just savvy ... but then apparently he did suggest this so I don't know.