RealGM

For their entire career who would you say was better and more consistent on defense ?

Just from emotion and memory I'm inclined to lean Shaq; Lebron's historically higher average motor on defense doesn't make up for Shaq being a mountain near the rim who enjoys swatting shots, regardless of given effort

Shaq prob had more value as a big in his era but Lebron was more consistent and better relative to position. Also might have more career value at this point.

Shaq is the better peak defensive player, but I find it hard to make the case his career defense was better. Between his lazy conditioning, obesity and other things just hard to do. Lebron’s consistency isn’t golden either, but Shaq was trash defensively in most seasons after 2006.

Probably LeBron, Shaq rarely put up consistent effort on defense and even at his best had huge, exploitable holes in his game. He might peak a bit higher (debatable) but most of his years were significantly worse than 2000.

70sFan wrote:Probably LeBron, Shaq rarely put up consistent effort on defense and even at his best had huge, exploitable holes in his game. He might peak a bit higher (debatable) but most of his years were significantly worse than 2000.

This is getting into a thing where the fallacy is, Shaq even needs to put in 110% to be effective at, anything in his athletic prime out there.

Shaq was not an elite defender, ever. Not even in 2000.

But he was pretty much a physical guarantee of rim deterrence, shot blocking, rebounding and post defense until he couldn’t move well into the late 00’s.

Shah’s motor revved low on plays where guys who had the dog in them would go fetch a high screen or a crazy rotation from the corner 3 to the rim.

The high level plays. DPOY level plays.

Simply being a true, athletically freakish 7’1” 280-350, with being a generational and irrationally hard foul guy(the only thing he led the league in yearly was lowest and1’s allowed, literally close to zero most seasons), is gonna be enough to clearly be a good defender.


Shaq was not leaving the paint in playoff games during the 3-peat. His low revving motor and awareness was not an on/off switch thing. It was a core part of his approach to defense and philosophy in general. Along with the philosophy of actually chasing blocks, disallowing and being offended by guys dunking in “his” paint and on him, along with other generally pro-defense things.


All that is to say I think Shaq has a better defensive career than LeBron. At their best, I would say LeBron was a little better though.

ShotCreator wrote:This is getting into a thing where the fallacy is, Shaq even needs to put in 110% to be effective at, anything in his athletic prime out there.

Shaq was not an elite defender, ever. Not even in 2000.

But he was pretty much a physical guarantee of rim deterrence, shot blocking, rebounding and post defense until he couldn’t move well into the late 00’s.

Shah’s motor revved low on plays where guys who had the dog in them would go fetch a high screen or a crazy rotation from the corner 3 to the rim.

The high level plays. DPOY level plays.

Simply being a true, athletically freakish 7’1” 280-350, with being a generational and irrationally hard foul guy(the only thing he led the league in yearly was lowest and1’s allowed, literally close to zero most seasons), is gonna be enough to clearly be a good defender.


Shaq was not leaving the paint in playoff games during the 3-peat. His low revving motor and awareness was not an on/off switch thing. It was a core part of his approach to defense and philosophy in general. Along with the philosophy of actually chasing blocks, disallowing and being offended by guys dunking in “his” paint and on him, along with other generally pro-defense things.


All that is to say I think Shaq has a better defensive career than LeBron. At their best, I would say LeBron was a little better though.

I'd agree with most of this. I think LeBron from 08-14 was better than Shaq's best 7 year run but overall it might be Shaq simply because I think LeBron's defense wasn't a priority after 2014 outside of 2020 and the 15-17 playoffs.

lebron anchored two 90's bulls level playoff defenses b2b in his 30's. What's shaq done to be in the same convo

70sFan wrote:Probably LeBron, Shaq rarely put up consistent effort on defense and even at his best had huge, exploitable holes in his game. He might peak a bit higher (debatable) but most of his years were significantly worse than 2000.

does shaq even have a good argument for a higher defensive peak than late cavs lebron? iirc the lakers were never as good defensively as the 15 or 16 cavs

OhayoKD wrote:

70sFan wrote:Probably LeBron, Shaq rarely put up consistent effort on defense and even at his best had huge, exploitable holes in his game. He might peak a bit higher (debatable) but most of his years were significantly worse than 2000.

does shaq even have a good argument for a higher defensive peak than late cavs lebron? iirc the lakers were never as good defensively as the 15 or 16 cavs

2000 Lakers were historically good on defense in RS (not so much in the PS) and 2001 Lakers also were elite in the playoffs (but horrible in RS).

OhayoKD wrote:lebron anchored two 90's bulls level playoff defenses b2b in his 30's. What's shaq done to be in the same convo

Be crazy huge. Honestly, it might be enough.

70sFan wrote:

OhayoKD wrote:

70sFan wrote:Probably LeBron, Shaq rarely put up consistent effort on defense and even at his best had huge, exploitable holes in his game. He might peak a bit higher (debatable) but most of his years were significantly worse than 2000.

does shaq even have a good argument for a higher defensive peak than late cavs lebron? iirc the lakers were never as good defensively as the 15 or 16 cavs

2000 Lakers were historically good on defense in RS (not so much in the PS) and 2001 Lakers also were elite in the playoffs (but horrible in RS).

Early 2000s Lakers had pretty good defensive supporting players. Kobe was at his peak defensively, they had Harper, Horace Grant, Horry and other dudes like Fox and Fisher who were solid. Of course, the way they played the game back in the day (free throw line and in) played into Shaq's strengths as a defender around the rim. They were still not among the elite teams on defense unlike Lebron's Cavs or Heat.

OhayoKD wrote:lebron anchored two 90's bulls level playoff defenses b2b in his 30's. What's shaq done to be in the same convo

Huh?

Lebron gave up finals mvp to all players at his position. Shaq only gave up to Hakeem.

JordansBulls wrote:

OhayoKD wrote:lebron anchored two 90's bulls level playoff defenses b2b in his 30's. What's shaq done to be in the same convo

Huh?

Lebron gave up finals mvp to all players at his position. Shaq only gave up to Hakeem.

Two of them got it for playing defense on Lebron James


And Tony Parker is not a small forward

I don't think people understand how good LeBron was as a defender in his prime. His off ball and team defense was so ridiculously good that Cleveland in 09 went from being a top defensive team when he was on the floor to bottom fifteen when he was off of it. A guy at SF who isn't even your main rim protector having that kind of defensive impact is absurd, and had it not been for playing in the same year as three time DPOY Dwight Howard (or getting infamously snubbed of the award in 2013 when he was very clearly the best defender that year), he would have DPOY on his resume.

It's a shame he stopped prioritizing defense after 2014. He showed for a while in 2020 that he can still be all team elite when putting in considerable effort at that end. He probably would have broken the all defensive team record with how many seasons he's played. But then again, I doubt he'd be playing at the level he is now, or be on pace to break the all time scoring record, if he had continued to give that kind of effort on a consistent basis. So I guess we'll never truly know how far LeBron could have gone in that regard if he chose to commit just as much on defense as he did on offense.

TheLand13 wrote:(or getting infamously snubbed of the award in 2013 when he was very clearly the best defender that year)

What evidence suggests Lebron was “clearly” the best defender in 2013?

It's clearly LeBron for me and don't really see much if argument otherwise. Shaq has never made an All Defensive First team and its no secret that he didn't put in much effort on that end to begin with. That's on top of Shaq various defensive limitations. Peak LeBron is one of the greatest and most versatile defensive players of all time. Elite perimeter defender and even a serviceable rim protector. Shaq just being big doesn't cut it in this comparison, I don't think this is particularly close.

Sent from my SM-G975U using RealGM mobile app

No-more-rings wrote:

TheLand13 wrote:(or getting infamously snubbed of the award in 2013 when he was very clearly the best defender that year)

What evidence suggests Lebron was “clearly” the best defender in 2013?

weren't the cavs not even a top 5 defense? why should lebron have won dpoy?

TheLand13 wrote:I don't think people understand how good LeBron was as a defender in his prime. His off ball and team defense was so ridiculously good that Cleveland in 09 went from being a top defensive team when he was on the floor to bottom fifteen when he was off of it. A guy at SF who isn't even your main rim protector having that kind of defensive impact is absurd, and had it not been for playing in the same year as three time DPOY Dwight Howard (or getting infamously snubbed of the award in 2013 when he was very clearly the best defender that year), he would have DPOY on his resume.

It's a shame he stopped prioritizing defense after 2014. He showed for a while in 2020 that he can still be all team elite when putting in considerable effort at that end. He probably would have broken the all defensive team record with how many seasons he's played. But then again, I doubt he'd be playing at the level he is now, or be on pace to break the all time scoring record, if he had continued to give that kind of effort on a consistent basis. So I guess we'll never truly know how far LeBron could have gone in that regard if he chose to commit just as much on defense as he did on offense.

i don't think it's a coincidince that once you swtich from box aggregates to plus-minus stuff lebron pulls up way ahead of the pack for post 80's players whether it be rapm, aupm, wowy, ect, ect.

his defense is a pretty big difference maker when you compare him to other all-time offensive pieces

Jaivl wrote:

OhayoKD wrote:lebron anchored two 90's bulls level playoff defenses b2b in his 30's. What's shaq done to be in the same convo

Be crazy huge. Honestly, it might be enough.

shouldn't his teams have been better defensively then?