RealGM

Who was the better player?

Wade

Wade pretty comfortably.

Wade i believe

Antoine walker played the second most minutes in the playoffs for Miami and Jason Williams played the 4th most. The warriors 4th best player started in the all-star game. And their 6th man started 3 games and put up 28.7 ppg on 84 TS%, a 3 game stretched done only one other time in nba history. Their 6th man!

The wade preference here contrasts heavily with the peak project results

Do people see such a difference betwren 17 and 22 curry ?

falcolombardi wrote:The wade preference here contrasts heavily with the peak project results

Do people see such a difference betwren 17 and 22 curry ?

Yeah, '22 Curry is a long way below peak Curry. A lot of what gets Curry so much credit in 2017 is his impact stats, but in 2022, they're not even close.

2017: on/off +17, playoff on/off +21, 5.33 RAPM (1st in 2017, 3rd of the last decade)
2022: on/off +10, playoff on/off +7, 3.67 RAPM (2nd in 2022, 34th of the last decade)

The box score stats were significantly better in 2017 as well in both the regular season and postseason. I feel like for Curry, even though he might have had his best individual series in 2022, overall, it's still significantly below his 3 year peak of 2015-2017.

Matt15 wrote:Who was the better player?

Curry.

Wade would be seen completely differently if his team hadn't managed to win the title, which they wouldn't have done in most years than, and would have no prayer against current teams because of the lack of 3-point shooting...which he was a part of.

Doctor MJ wrote:

Matt15 wrote:Who was the better player?

Curry.

Wade would be seen completely differently if his team hadn't managed to win the title, which they wouldn't have done in most years than, and would have no prayer against current teams because of the lack of 3-point shooting...which he was a part of.

So just like 2022 curry? I am not sure the relevance here of that point

They won and they did win with one of the grestest finals performsnces ever by wade

The point about lack of 3 point shooting is specially weird tbh

Not only is it not too relevant when comparing players of different eras (may as well say that curry>jordan cause the latter's teams didnt shoot much from 3 either)

but a modern team around peak wade would follow a lebron esque approach of surrounding him with tons of 3 point shooters. Wade is essentially small lebron in a lot og ways and lebron with shooters crested historic offensive success

All this before mentioning that wade has a sizable edge as a defender so he only needs to be close-ish offensively

falcolombardi wrote:

Doctor MJ wrote:

Matt15 wrote:Who was the better player?

Curry.

Wade would be seen completely differently if his team hadn't managed to win the title, which they wouldn't have done in most years than, and would have no prayer against current teams because of the lack of 3-point shooting...which he was a part of.

So just like 2022 curry? I am not sure the relevance here of that point

They won and they did win with one of the grestest finals performsnces ever by wade

The point about lack of 3 point shooting is specially weird tbh

Not only is it not too relevant when comparing players of different eras (may as well say that curry>jordan cause the latter's teams didnt shoot much from 3 either)

but a modern team around peak wade would follow a lebron esque approach of surrounding him with tons of 3 point shooters. Wade is essentially small lebron in a lot og ways and lebron with shooters crested historic offensive success

All this before mentioning that wade has a sizable edge as a defender so he only needs to be close-ish offensively

I think I read somewhere peak Wade had some value spacing wise because giving him too much space with the ball meant you’d get schmayeeted if he got to build that quickness up

I don't really buy that much into Wade being worse today due to lack of 3 pt shooting. People were talking DeRozan up as an mvp candidate this year and he's not close to 06 Wade. Granted I do think the combo of wearing body armor and easy whistles made him look a bit better than he deserved in those finals but he'd be a monster today imo and probably become a slightly better 3 pt shooter.

falcolombardi wrote:

Doctor MJ wrote:

Matt15 wrote:Who was the better player?

Curry.

Wade would be seen completely differently if his team hadn't managed to win the title, which they wouldn't have done in most years than, and would have no prayer against current teams because of the lack of 3-point shooting...which he was a part of.

So just like 2022 curry? I am not sure the relevance here of that point

They won and they did win with one of the grestest finals performsnces ever by wade

The point about lack of 3 point shooting is specially weird tbh

Not only is it not too relevant when comparing players of different eras (may as well say that curry>jordan cause the latter's teams didnt shoot much from 3 either)

but a modern team around peak wade would follow a lebron esque approach of surrounding him with tons of 3 point shooters. Wade is essentially small lebron in a lot og ways and lebron with shooters crested historic offensive success

All this before mentioning that wade has a sizable edge as a defender so he only needs to be close-ish offensively

I started to work on a post about Wade for the project, but haven’t had much time the past few days because of things going on with my family. The point you made about Jordan and Lebron is right. For a guy with many similarities to both, I don’t understand why the same people who are very high on them aren’t the same with Wade. He’s not as good as those guys for sure, but he’s basically giving you 95% of Jordan’s offense and maybe 90-95% of his defense at the same time. If Jordan’s considered the goat peak by someone I don’t know how Wade is seen like 3-4 tiers below that.

MyUniBroDavis wrote:

falcolombardi wrote:

Doctor MJ wrote:
Curry.

Wade would be seen completely differently if his team hadn't managed to win the title, which they wouldn't have done in most years than, and would have no prayer against current teams because of the lack of 3-point shooting...which he was a part of.

So just like 2022 curry? I am not sure the relevance here of that point

They won and they did win with one of the grestest finals performsnces ever by wade

The point about lack of 3 point shooting is specially weird tbh

Not only is it not too relevant when comparing players of different eras (may as well say that curry>jordan cause the latter's teams didnt shoot much from 3 either)

but a modern team around peak wade would follow a lebron esque approach of surrounding him with tons of 3 point shooters. Wade is essentially small lebron in a lot og ways and lebron with shooters crested historic offensive success

All this before mentioning that wade has a sizable edge as a defender so he only needs to be close-ish offensively

I think I read somewhere peak Wade had some value spacing wise because giving him too much space with the ball meant you’d get schmayeeted if he got to build that quickness up

Also much like Derozan, I don’t think it’s fair to classify wade as a total non shooter.

In his prime he was a solid mid range shooter and definitely not the kind of player you want to leave totally open.

Im Your Father wrote:

MyUniBroDavis wrote:

falcolombardi wrote:
So just like 2022 curry? I am not sure the relevance here of that point

They won and they did win with one of the grestest finals performsnces ever by wade

The point about lack of 3 point shooting is specially weird tbh

Not only is it not too relevant when comparing players of different eras (may as well say that curry>jordan cause the latter's teams didnt shoot much from 3 either)

but a modern team around peak wade would follow a lebron esque approach of surrounding him with tons of 3 point shooters. Wade is essentially small lebron in a lot og ways and lebron with shooters crested historic offensive success

All this before mentioning that wade has a sizable edge as a defender so he only needs to be close-ish offensively

I think I read somewhere peak Wade had some value spacing wise because giving him too much space with the ball meant you’d get schmayeeted if he got to build that quickness up

Also much like Derozan, I don’t think it’s fair to classify wade as a total non shooter.

In his prime he was a solid mid range shooter and definitely not the kind of player you want to leave totally open.

Ehh, when it comes to spacing it is very much three point shooting or nothing, helping off of a solid mid range shot is still a good thing

Doctor MJ wrote:

Matt15 wrote:Who was the better player?

Curry.

Wade would be seen completely differently if his team hadn't managed to win the title, which they wouldn't have done in most years than, and would have no prayer against current teams because of the lack of 3-point shooting...which he was a part of.

Curry would be a whipping boy if the Warriors did not win a title this year. Or people would say he's out of his prime.

falcolombardi wrote:

Doctor MJ wrote:

Matt15 wrote:Who was the better player?

Curry.

Wade would be seen completely differently if his team hadn't managed to win the title, which they wouldn't have done in most years than, and would have no prayer against current teams because of the lack of 3-point shooting...which he was a part of.

So just like 2022 curry? I am not sure the relevance here of that point

They won and they did win with one of the grestest finals performsnces ever by wade

The point about lack of 3 point shooting is specially weird tbh

Not only is it not too relevant when comparing players of different eras (may as well say that curry>jordan cause the latter's teams didnt shoot much from 3 either)

but a modern team around peak wade would follow a lebron esque approach of surrounding him with tons of 3 point shooters. Wade is essentially small lebron in a lot og ways and lebron with shooters crested historic offensive success

All this before mentioning that wade has a sizable edge as a defender so he only needs to be close-ish offensively

I didn't say "2006 Wade", I said "Wade". I'm saying that the entire way he was perceived as a player was shaped early on by the championship run, which the Heat were exceptionally lucky to they were a very weak champion even for their era.

Because of that title run, people have a tendency to think that whatever limitations Wade had, they must not have actually held he and his team back because they won 4 straight playoff series one year. In reality, those limitations were always holding Wade and the team back to some degree, and these limitations are things that I think we need to take seriously when asking how good he was at basketball.

Re: greatest finals performances ever. You're saying this looking heavily at Wade's scoring numbers. Keep in mind the Heat had an ORtg in that series of 101.0, which was WAY worse than what the Spurs and the Suns pulled off. I'm not saying not to be impressed by Wade's finals, but when you talk as if the actual level of effectiveness of the team is not "relevant" because the team won - and likely allude to his PPG as proof that "he got whatever he wanted" - this is cutting off the basketball analysis in favor of a narrative arc.

Re: point about lack of 3-point shooting is specially weird. Could not disagree more. To me it's pretty obvious that certain players are going to benefit from more 3-point shooting more than others. We can debate about who specifically will be getting the disproportionate benefits, but there's no reason to think it would affect all players the same.

From my perspective:

The primary effect of more 3-point shooting is that the value of role player scoring goes up relative to volume scorers.

This then makes the value of passing greater relative to individual scoring than it used to be, and thus some shots that it used to be more optimal to take (relative to the other options presented on the court), are now better off as passes.

I'd note that when the SSOL Suns came to be, this resulted in Nash having the best on-court ORtg in the league for each of 7 straight seasons, which likely never happened before in the history of the NBA. How did that happen? Have an outlier decision maker probe the defense and rely on his ability to know what the best move is before anyone else, while having as many players as you can be ready to shoot open 3's. Added benefit with Nash himself being such a great shooter.

So in general I'd say that great shooters and great passers have the advantage, though I'll acknowledge that there's an argument to be made the spacing helps volume scorers just as much nowadays. Of course the thing is, it also helps guys who would not have volume scored in the past volume score now. Jokic would be nowhere near as effective as a scorer in the past as he is now...but it's the threat of his decision making that is what's allowing him to do this on a level beyond other bigs that would have scored more than him in the old days.

Re: Wade is essentially small LeBron. No he isn't. Wade was never the facilitator LeBron was and continues to be. Do understand that while LeBron was touted as a Magic-like passing and floor general while in high school, Wade was a 2 known specifically for his ability to drive and finish who as a rookie talked about being less comfortable playing the 1 (as he was doing with Eddie Jones out there), and enjoying when he got to go back to playing like a 2.

I don't want to talk as if Wade is a horrible passer, but it's important we don't brush aside differences between passing ability when we talk about this stuff.

HeartBreakKid wrote:

Doctor MJ wrote:

Matt15 wrote:Who was the better player?

Curry.

Wade would be seen completely differently if his team hadn't managed to win the title, which they wouldn't have done in most years than, and would have no prayer against current teams because of the lack of 3-point shooting...which he was a part of.

Curry would be a whipping boy if the Warriors did not win a title this year. Or people would say he's out of his prime.

Read my other response on this. Wade winning his 1st title was a bigger deal in the perception of Wade than Curry's 4th was for him.

MyUniBroDavis wrote:

Im Your Father wrote:

MyUniBroDavis wrote:
I think I read somewhere peak Wade had some value spacing wise because giving him too much space with the ball meant you’d get schmayeeted if he got to build that quickness up

Also much like Derozan, I don’t think it’s fair to classify wade as a total non shooter.

In his prime he was a solid mid range shooter and definitely not the kind of player you want to leave totally open.

Ehh, when it comes to spacing it is very much three point shooting or nothing, helping off of a solid mid range shot is still a good thing

I meant more that he could occasionally knock down a 3 and would take them from time to time. He’s not Ben Simmons.

Also a great cutter, which has spacing value.

2006 Wade is a perfect example of the capriciousness of NBA officiating. Mavs got whistles too for sure but the fact that the officials just decided to call it tight favored Wade and the Heat a lot more. Wade got 97 free throws in 6 games. Shaq against the Blazers in 2000 shot 99 free throws in 7 games...and he was being deliberately hacked for a lot of them. I almost look at that series as an aberration.

Peregrine01 wrote:2006 Wade is a perfect example of the capriciousness of NBA officiating. Mavs got whistles too for sure but the fact that the officials just decided to call it tight favored Wade and the Heat a lot more. Wade got 97 free throws in 6 games. Shaq against the Blazers in 2000 shot 99 free throws in 7 games...and he was being deliberately hacked for a lot of them. I almost look at that series as an aberration.

He was jusr as incredible scoring 27/5 (in a snail/turtle 85~ possesions a game pace) agains the still strong defensively 2006 pistons at 68%ts

Adjusted to modern 100~ pace it would be equivalent to 32/6.5 in +15 efficiency for the era against a fairly above average defense

And he was incresible agains boston defense in 2010 when he played them better than lebron or kobe or dallas in 2011 too when he may have been the best player in the floor for both teams..... he was far from a one hit wonder in his admiteddly short prime

He was great every playoffs he played from 2006 (his playoffs sophomore run when he won a ring) to 2011