RealGM

Michael Jordan
Sidney Moncrief
Tony Allen
Michael Cooper
Gary Payton
Jason Kidd

I'd be shocked if Jordan didn't win this poll -- larger voting pools without discussion usually tend to favor Jordan

That said, I think it should give us pause that many basketball historians/analysts favor Moncrief over Jordan defensively (and sometimes Tony Allen too). Moncrief has a top 10 prime WOWY score all time. That's huge! How much of that comes from defense? I'd argue more than his offense. And while WOWY is a bit noisier than normal plus/minus, Moncrief did miss more games as he got older which should give us a more stable sample when he's off the court (9 games missed at age 28, 43 games missed age 29, 26 games missed age 30). Moncrief also does better in our limited DRAPM data (https://squared2020.com) -- Jordan still looks good defensively, but he doesn't quite have the gaudy numbers that his reputation would suggest.

In Jordan's defense, he does look a touch better in defensive PIPM estimates. But The 80s Bucks had a 6-year stretch as a -4 defense, and I'd argue Moncrief was the best defender on that team! Compare that to Jordan, who has an argument for not being the best defender on any of his title-winning teams.

People like to argue for Jordan by shrinking the sample size. "Sure, Moncrief might have been the better man defender and team defender over the course of several seasons, But I'd rather *Skip Baylis voice* Michael. Jeffrey. Jordan. with 1 minute left and the game on the line." Eh... maybe. I don't think Jordan's possible (unproved) advantage in a one minute stretch is nearly enough to take him over Moncrief's clear 82-game 47-minute advantage. Especially not when Jordan's best defensive seasons were often limited slightly by the cost of his gamble-heavy defensive strategies.

To me, the more compelling argument for Jordan is: Moncrief certainly didn't have the offensive load that Jordan had. What would Michael Jordan look like on defense if he only had the offensive load of Moncrief? That's an interesting question, and I don't know the answer. I wouldn't be against Jordan in that scenario though, especially if he could find a way to balance his gambling habit

Can't go wrong with any of these guys. I'm biased toward the Glove as he was one of my favorites as a kid so I voted him, but Tony Allen was an absolute stud on the perimeter. Kidd was the king of somehow being able to draw a charge in transition at the last possible second, which it probably wasn't but it looked good on TV, lol.

On a per minute/possession basis Tony Allen is clearly superior in my opinion.

I would have added Nate McMillan to the poll as he was one of the most impactful perimeter defenders we have data for.

Alvin Robertson belongs in this discussion.

Relative to position and role, you gotta go Jordan. Nobody came close to replicating his scoring while also maintaining goat level D.

Between Moncrief and Allen for me.

I'll go Moncrief.

Allen very well may have been better, but was so bad on O he simply couldn't stay on the court enough to match Moncriefs impact.

Kidd I think has a reasonable case.

Don't see good cases for MJ/Payton/Cooper.

SHAQ32 wrote:Relative to position and role, you gotta go Jordan. Nobody came close to replicating his scoring while also maintaining goat level D.

Sounds like you are giving consideration to his ability to score while maintaining his defense. Since the thread is only asking about perimeter defense, I am assuming that things like scoring, ball-handling, rebounding and interior post defense are irrelevant to the discussion. So just looking only at perimeter defense and nothing else, it comes down to either Allen or Payton for me. If the discussion is limited to just on-ball perimeter defense, then the Glove got his nickname for a reason. If defensive rebounding were included, then Kidd would be up at the top of the list but I don't consider rebounding to be that relevant to one's perimeter defense.

I think Rodman in his 88-91 years was among the best ever. Absurd combination of length, quickness, strength and motor back then.

Samurai wrote:

SHAQ32 wrote:Relative to position and role, you gotta go Jordan. Nobody came close to replicating his scoring while also maintaining goat level D.

Sounds like you are giving consideration to his ability to score while maintaining his defense. Since the thread is only asking about perimeter defense, I am assuming that things like scoring, ball-handling, rebounding and interior post defense are irrelevant to the discussion. So just looking only at perimeter defense and nothing else, it comes down to either Allen or Payton for me. If the discussion is limited to just on-ball perimeter defense, then the Glove got his nickname for a reason. If defensive rebounding were included, then Kidd would be up at the top of the list but I don't consider rebounding to be that relevant to one's perimeter defense.

And, while it's not Jordan level scoring, Sid was scoring 20/game in his prime on close to .600 ts% while never taking a possession off on defense. One reason he broke down so fast most likely though his knees were a problem before he ever became a pro. He's my choice for on ball, though not the terror creating steals of a Nate McMillan type.

Cavsfansince84 wrote:I think Rodman in his 88-91 years was among the best ever. Absurd combination of length, quickness, strength and motor back then.

He played SF, so why do I never hear about him defending MJ do you think? Its always Joe Dumars and I get that he played SG, but give me the best wing defender on Jordan please.

I just never hear of that. And who do you think is #2 to Rodman during that time?

Jordan. Won DPOY, Has the most all team 1st teams defensive teams in the shortest amount of time, never got outscored in a series especially not at his position.

mdonnelly1989 wrote:

Cavsfansince84 wrote:I think Rodman in his 88-91 years was among the best ever. Absurd combination of length, quickness, strength and motor back then.

He played SF, so why do I never hear about him defending MJ do you think? Its always Joe Dumars and I get that he played SG, but give me the best wing defender on Jordan please.

I just never hear of that. And who do you think is #2 to Rodman during that time?

He did defend MJ a decent amount and did a great job on him. Probably Pippen or they are close.

JordansBulls wrote:Jordan. Won DPOY, Has the most all team 1st teams defensive teams in the shortest amount of time, never got outscored in a series especially not at his position.

Check Harden's numbers and you will find he rarely got outscored by his counterparts either; not surprising when you are shooting more than anyone else in the league. However, you would hardly call him a great defender. Offensive ability shouldn't be in this conversation.

Jordan is a legit great defender. If he was always angry and focused, he might even be my choice but he wasn't consistently keyed in on that end but would turn it off and on. That's why a guy like Moncrief, Allen, or Pippen would be my choice over Jordan for best perimeter defender. And it was Pippen that the Bulls put on the hot hand when they absolutely needed to stop a player, be it a SF, a SG, or even a PG. He'd be another legit choice if he was in the OP.

penbeast0 wrote:

JordansBulls wrote:Jordan. Won DPOY, Has the most all team 1st teams defensive teams in the shortest amount of time, never got outscored in a series especially not at his position.

Check Harden's numbers and you will find he rarely got outscored by his counterparts either; not surprising when you are shooting more than anyone else in the league. However, you would hardly call him a great defender. Offensive ability shouldn't be in this conversation.

Jordan is a legit great defender. If he was always angry and focused, he might even be my choice but he wasn't consistently keyed in on that end but would turn it off and on. That's why a guy like Moncrief, Allen, or Pippen would be my choice over Jordan for best perimeter defender. And it was Pippen that the Bulls put on the hot hand when they absolutely needed to stop a player, be it a SF, a SG, or even a PG. He'd be another legit choice if he was in the OP.

Pippen would get worked over against good to great offensive players, they put Jordan on those guys to slow them down. See Jamal Mashburn, Grant Hill as examples.

JordansBulls wrote:

penbeast0 wrote:

JordansBulls wrote:Jordan. Won DPOY, Has the most all team 1st teams defensive teams in the shortest amount of time, never got outscored in a series especially not at his position.

Check Harden's numbers and you will find he rarely got outscored by his counterparts either; not surprising when you are shooting more than anyone else in the league. However, you would hardly call him a great defender. Offensive ability shouldn't be in this conversation.

Jordan is a legit great defender. If he was always angry and focused, he might even be my choice but he wasn't consistently keyed in on that end but would turn it off and on. That's why a guy like Moncrief, Allen, or Pippen would be my choice over Jordan for best perimeter defender. And it was Pippen that the Bulls put on the hot hand when they absolutely needed to stop a player, be it a SF, a SG, or even a PG. He'd be another legit choice if he was in the OP.

Pippen would get worked over against good to great offensive players, they put Jordan on those guys to slow them down. See Jamal Mashburn, Grant Hill as examples.

Jordan is a guard...of course he will be better suited for guarding certain guys than Pippen...they have different physical attributes.

I'm sure there are plenty of guys Pippen did better against than Jordan did/would.

^ Magic Johnson comes to mind.

John Havlicek belongs in a poll like this one.