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who's the more athletic centre at their peak?

Probably Bill. Think he was a better run and jump athlete.

Hakeem was a great athlete but Russell is likely in my top-5 athletes to ever step on the hardwood.

In traditional athleticism metrics, I tend to go Russell.

Like HeartBreakKid said, Russell's running and leaping ability at the center position is All-time level. The highlight where he jumps over a guy still makes my jaw drop to this day


I think an under appreciated part of Russel's leaping was not just the height he could reach (he was reported to be an olympic level jumper), but also his quickness off his feet. This kind of explosiveness has a ton of value on defense, where a player can get high quickly to block or disrupt a shot. (and it might've had offensive value as a lob-threat on offense if that action was ran back then).

Some people include size/length when comparing athleticism. Hakeem might be a touch bigger, but Russel was ~6-11 in shoes, so the gap isn't huge, and I don't see it as enough to offset Rusell's quickness.

I think the argument for Hakeem might go something like this: how much do we value coordination and fluidity as part of athleticism? Here, Hakeem has the massive advantage. He had an incredible coordination with both hands, and with both feet (his footwork was GOAT level at his position). He clearly had a better shooting touch. I'd argue he had these skills over Russell by a fair margin.

DraymondGold wrote:In traditional athleticism metrics, I tend to go Russell.

Like HeartBreakKid said, Russell's running and leaping ability at the center position is All-time level. The highlight where he jumps over a guy still makes my jaw drop to this day

Watch on YouTube

I think an under appreciated part of Russel's leaping was not just the height he could reach (he was reported to be an olympic level jumper), but also his quickness off his feet. This kind of explosiveness has a ton of value on defense, where a player can get high quickly to block or disrupt a shot. (and it might've had offensive value as a lob-threat on offense if that action was ran back then).

Some people include size/length when comparing athleticism. Hakeem might be a touch bigger, but Russel was ~6-11 in shoes, so the gap isn't huge, and I don't see it as enough to offset Rusell's quickness.

I think the argument for Hakeem might go something like this: how much do we value coordination and fluidity as part of athleticism? Here, Hakeem has the massive advantage. He had an incredible coordination with both hands, and with both feet (his footwork was GOAT level at his position). He clearly had a better shooting touch. I'd argue he had these skills over Russell by a fair margin.

Just to verify those reports:

https://trackandfieldnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/14-mHJRank.pdf

2.06 M is the highest I've seen reported for him, which would've tied him for 4th at the Olympics that year (though also could've left him off the US team, which had some elite talent and 3 olympic finalists).

What's hard about this comparison is that we have a lot of evidence for the native and not so much for the immigrant; we have a lot of "memory" of Russell when he was young, but not so much for the dark, lost years of the Houston center. I remember reading something that still jumps out at me, to this day; on elgee's backpicks, he mentioned something along the lines of "Hakeem may have been the quickest and fastest center to have ever played the game." https://backpicks.com/2018/03/25/backpicks-goat-hakeem-olajuwon/

Obviously Bill Russell was a TREMENDOUS athlete, but Hakeem was demonstrably insane as well, especially in his youth.

DraymondGold wrote: The highlight where he jumps over a guy still makes my jaw drop to this day

Watch on YouTube

you still can't convince me that highlight isn't just a deepfake that the lizard people and illuminati put together.

and i agree, i'm not sure i've seen hakeem do the equivalent in terms of straight running and jumping. russell seems like a freak. but hakeem has that balletic quality to everything. the backpicks top 40 has a 10 second defensive clip of hakeem here:



he switches on a pick and roll, recovers to a shooter, switches on another pick and roll, and then roams 20 feet back to the basket to block a shot to help an overwhelmed teammate. if it's not the best defensive play i've ever seen, it's up there. it's like there were 3 of him on the court.

DraymondGold wrote:In traditional athleticism metrics, I tend to go Russell.

Like HeartBreakKid said, Russell's running and leaping ability at the center position is All-time level. The highlight where he jumps over a guy still makes my jaw drop to this day

Watch on YouTube

I think an under appreciated part of Russel's leaping was not just the height he could reach (he was reported to be an olympic level jumper), but also his quickness off his feet. This kind of explosiveness has a ton of value on defense, where a player can get high quickly to block or disrupt a shot. (and it might've had offensive value as a lob-threat on offense if that action was ran back then).

Some people include size/length when comparing athleticism. Hakeem might be a touch bigger, but Russel was ~6-11 in shoes, so the gap isn't huge, and I don't see it as enough to offset Rusell's quickness.

I think the argument for Hakeem might go something like this: how much do we value coordination and fluidity as part of athleticism? Here, Hakeem has the massive advantage. He had an incredible coordination with both hands, and with both feet (his footwork was GOAT level at his position). He clearly had a better shooting touch. I'd argue he had these skills over Russell by a fair margin.

That mobility and athletism is just mindblowing

Was russel a guy who took most og his shots from post ups? Causd with that athletism and speed and assumedly a ton of offensive rebounds is hard to understand how he was not more efficient

He would make a wild pick and roll roll-man today, one who also can pass and handle a bit it seems

falcolombardi wrote:That mobility and athletism is just mindblowing

Was russel a guy who took most og his shots from post ups? Causd with that athletism and speed and assumedly a ton of offensive rebounds is hard to understand how he was not more efficient

He would make a wild pick and roll roll-man today, one who also can pass and handle a bit it seems

yeah, that's always a little confusing. that athleticism would look crazy today, and it was the 1960's. so how could he be so bad on offense? a crazy fact is that bill russell never scored 40 points in an NBA game. regular season or playoffs. considering how fast the pace was, how many minutes he played, how many favorable non-wilt matchups he must have had, and the fact that a 15 offensive rebound game probably wasn't that rare for him, it seems like he would have just tripped and fallen into a 40 point game at some point. corey brewer once scored 51 in a career where he once missed every 3 for a month. how bill wasn't scoring 40 every 10th game or so is amazing. and as often pointed out, it's not like the celtics offense was a juggernaut that didn't need it.

falcolombardi wrote:

DraymondGold wrote:In traditional athleticism metrics, I tend to go Russell.

Like HeartBreakKid said, Russell's running and leaping ability at the center position is All-time level. The highlight where he jumps over a guy still makes my jaw drop to this day

Watch on YouTube

I think an under appreciated part of Russel's leaping was not just the height he could reach (he was reported to be an olympic level jumper), but also his quickness off his feet. This kind of explosiveness has a ton of value on defense, where a player can get high quickly to block or disrupt a shot. (and it might've had offensive value as a lob-threat on offense if that action was ran back then).

Some people include size/length when comparing athleticism. Hakeem might be a touch bigger, but Russel was ~6-11 in shoes, so the gap isn't huge, and I don't see it as enough to offset Rusell's quickness.

I think the argument for Hakeem might go something like this: how much do we value coordination and fluidity as part of athleticism? Here, Hakeem has the massive advantage. He had an incredible coordination with both hands, and with both feet (his footwork was GOAT level at his position). He clearly had a better shooting touch. I'd argue he had these skills over Russell by a fair margin.

That mobility and athletism is just mindblowing

Was russel a guy who took most og his shots from post ups? Causd with that athletism and speed and assumedly a ton of offensive rebounds is hard to understand how he was not more efficient

He would make a wild pick and roll roll-man today, one who also can pass and handle a bit it seems

He actually took a fair amount of jumpers (which wasn't very pretty) and was severly underutilized in pick and roll situations compared to today's game. I think in today's game with more focus on it he could easily average 20+ on athleticism alone even though at a certain point it would probably eat into his defensive stamina.

A video with some good high quality clips of Russell.



Look at that shin angle on the drive a bit after 1:10. Hot damn, Giannis wishes he could get that much leverage.

Just effortless speed and bounce.

Of Elgee's video selection, after the insane "extra 3 defenders" video already posted, my favorite has to be the one where Dream comes over to block (old) Kareem's hook

I remeber reading somewhere that Russell best placement in the high jump in college was a 1st place tie. The guy he tied with went on to win the Olympic Gold Medal in the high jump the next olympics.

Russell's one of the few guys that verifiably was top-tier world class in a sport/athletic endeavor other than basketball.

This just came out and seems fairly topical, so thought I'd share:



Russell probably has the advantage in "hard" athletic skills, though people have made a good point above that Hakeem's pretty quick in his own right!

I might give Hakeem the advantage in "soft" athletic skills (especially coordination/touch), though Russell might (?) have the stamina advantage.

And to vote, I went Russell.

Edge in explosive movements, speed, quickness, reaction time and stamina.

Edge to Hakeem in balance related areas and likely a slight edge in strength.

I don't think it's easy to pick a more athletic player in this comparison. Both are insanely quick, nimble and mobile for their size. Both are significantly stronger than they look. Hakeem seems to have the edge in coordination, although Russell wasn't bad himself.

The tiebreaker is probably Russell's speed and jumping ability. Hakeem was an elite jumper himself, although I doubt he was on Russell's level. Speed is a clear edge for Bill from what I've seen.

falcolombardi wrote:

DraymondGold wrote:In traditional athleticism metrics, I tend to go Russell.

Like HeartBreakKid said, Russell's running and leaping ability at the center position is All-time level. The highlight where he jumps over a guy still makes my jaw drop to this day

Watch on YouTube

I think an under appreciated part of Russel's leaping was not just the height he could reach (he was reported to be an olympic level jumper), but also his quickness off his feet. This kind of explosiveness has a ton of value on defense, where a player can get high quickly to block or disrupt a shot. (and it might've had offensive value as a lob-threat on offense if that action was ran back then).

Some people include size/length when comparing athleticism. Hakeem might be a touch bigger, but Russel was ~6-11 in shoes, so the gap isn't huge, and I don't see it as enough to offset Rusell's quickness.

I think the argument for Hakeem might go something like this: how much do we value coordination and fluidity as part of athleticism? Here, Hakeem has the massive advantage. He had an incredible coordination with both hands, and with both feet (his footwork was GOAT level at his position). He clearly had a better shooting touch. I'd argue he had these skills over Russell by a fair margin.

That mobility and athletism is just mindblowing

Was russel a guy who took most og his shots from post ups? Causd with that athletism and speed and assumedly a ton of offensive rebounds is hard to understand how he was not more efficient

He would make a wild pick and roll roll-man today, one who also can pass and handle a bit it seems

It’s crazy in absolute terms but even more remarkable in relative terms compared to opposition. Utterly dominant impact from defense alone could have been augmented with an offensive scheme plan suited to his strengths, but then again as Eminence points out, doing so might have take away from his defensive stamina. But of course, it also has be said that regardless of use, a player with that type of athleticism that’s standard deviations above the mean should have been better offensively.

Off topic but RIP to Mr. Russell

I'm sorry but for as incredible as Hakeem was, I don't think you can watch those clips and truly think he's even in the same ballpark as Russell as far nimbleness, agility, and fluidity goes. Hakeem moved like a wing in a big man's body, which is absolutely incredible. But Russell moved like a guard. It's an annoying trope in basketball discussion but as far as movement patterns go "iTs nOt eVeN cLoSe" imo. Hakeem's hips look positively stiff compared to Russell, which isn't a diss on Hakeem but rather more of an ode to what an otherworldly athlete for his size Bill Russell was in his prime.

As the great Shakira once said, Hips don't lie Mayne. The only person I've seen in all my years of watching basketball that had the same level of fluidity in his hips as Russell at that size is Jonathan Isaac on the Magic. And Lord knows what happened to that kid, but he could be a defensive marvel if he got his s*** together. Though I get the sense his IQ isn't great.

Btw RIP to a true GOAT

I am starting to wonder if russel is not more athletic than wilt

Different sorts of athletism but there is a good argument russel's is the most helpful in basketball