RealGM

Better player during these years?

Wade too good in the playoffs. Has to be 1st. Harden 2nd with incredible regular season lift and nearly knocking off the KD warriors twice and just straight up better playoff stats than kobe. kobe 2000 is not up there with the rest and 2005 was a poor/incomplete and 2004 he shot his team out of the finals.

Ranking best to worst:

1a. 09 Wade
1b. 01 Kobe
1c. 2018 Harden
2. 06 Wade
3. 03 Kobe
4. 2010 Wade
5. 2017 Harden
6. 2019 Harden
7. 2011 Wade
8. 2016 Harden
9. 02 Kobe
10. 2015 Harden
11. 04 Kobe
12. 05 Kobe
13. 00 Kobe
14. 2014 Harden
15/16: 07/08 Wade

Wade has 3 clear top tier seasons in this group (06, 09, 10), Kobe has 2 (01, 03), and Harden has 2 (2017, 2018), but Harden has a bunch of very good seasons that just isn't top tier enough, whereas Kobe had a couple terrible ones (04, 05) and a not mature enough one (00), Wade have 2 non existent ones (07/08 due to injuries), and Harden has a not mature one (2014).

Top tier seasons: Wade(3: 06,09,10), Harden(2: 17,18), Kobe(2: 01,03)
Great but flawed seasons: Wade(1: 2011), Kobe(1: 2002), Harden(3: 15,16,19)
Superstar level seasons but with clear black marks: Kobe(2: 04,05)
Top 15 player seasons: Kobe(1: 00), Harden(1: 2014)
No-value-add seasons: Wade(2: 07,08)

If I assign point values 0-4, where 4 = top tier seasons, and 0=no value, I would have:

Harden(18) > Kobe(16) > Wade(15)

if anything, i would flip 2019 harden with 2017, if for no other reason than 2017 ends with a playoff flameout and 2019 featured harden's best playoff series, putting up 35/7/5.5 versus the warriors with cp3 looking like crap.

Wade in 2006, Wade in 2009, and Wade in 2010 are each better than any of the Kobe/Harden seasons. This really isn't a close comparison.

iggymcfrack wrote:Wade in 2006, Wade in 2009, and Wade in 2010 are each better than any of the Kobe/Harden seasons. This really isn't a close comparison.

I don't think it's nearly as clear as you make it out to be here...

iggymcfrack wrote:Wade in 2006, Wade in 2009, and Wade in 2010 are each better than any of the Kobe/Harden seasons. This really isn't a close comparison.

2001 Kobe was arguably better than Shaq in the playoffs and dominated opponents that were way better than anyone Wade went up against in 06. 03 Kobe averaged 30 when teams were scoring in the 80s. Harden in 17-19 put up some all time level scoring numbers.

Asianiac_24 wrote:

iggymcfrack wrote:Wade in 2006, Wade in 2009, and Wade in 2010 are each better than any of the Kobe/Harden seasons. This really isn't a close comparison.

2001 Kobe was arguably better than Shaq in the playoffs and dominated opponents that were way better than anyone Wade went up against in 06. 03 Kobe averaged 30 when teams were scoring in the 80s. Harden in 17-19 put up some all time level scoring numbers.

That seems a stretch

falcolombardi wrote:

Asianiac_24 wrote:

iggymcfrack wrote:Wade in 2006, Wade in 2009, and Wade in 2010 are each better than any of the Kobe/Harden seasons. This really isn't a close comparison.

2001 Kobe was arguably better than Shaq in the playoffs and dominated opponents that were way better than anyone Wade went up against in 06. 03 Kobe averaged 30 when teams were scoring in the 80s. Harden in 17-19 put up some all time level scoring numbers.

That seems a stretch

Kobe scored 62 in 3 quarters against the Mavs that year and averaged more than 40 in the season series. The 06 Mavs for a Finals team was a historically bad defensive team, in a year where perimeter play became easier due to rule changes. Had Kobe went up against the Mavs in the playoffs that year, he’d average over 40

Asianiac_24 wrote:

falcolombardi wrote:

Asianiac_24 wrote:
2001 Kobe was arguably better than Shaq in the playoffs and dominated opponents that were way better than anyone Wade went up against in 06. 03 Kobe averaged 30 when teams were scoring in the 80s. Harden in 17-19 put up some all time level scoring numbers.

That seems a stretch

Kobe scored 62 in 3 quarters against the Mavs that year and averaged more than 40 in the season series. The 06 Mavs for a Finals team was a historically bad defensive team, in a year where perimeter play became easier due to rule changes. Had Kobe went up against the Mavs in the playoffs that year, he’d average over 40

Wade run didn't end at Dallas though. He also dominated Pistons team, the same core which shut down Kobe two years earlier.

The poll reflects pretty well that it’s clearly Wade even if it’s not a big gap. That seems like a weird stretch to pick for Kobe. 2000, 2004 and 2005 are some of his weakest seasons of his prime-ish run.

70sFan wrote:

Asianiac_24 wrote:

falcolombardi wrote:
That seems a stretch

Kobe scored 62 in 3 quarters against the Mavs that year and averaged more than 40 in the season series. The 06 Mavs for a Finals team was a historically bad defensive team, in a year where perimeter play became easier due to rule changes. Had Kobe went up against the Mavs in the playoffs that year, he’d average over 40

Wade run didn't end at Dallas though. He also dominated Pistons team, the same core which shut down Kobe two years earlier.

That Pistons team was not the same as 2004. Ben Wallace was getting washed by than, and the rule changes made the 04 Pistons style defense impossible. Teams were scoring in the 60s and 70s against the 04 Pistons.

01 Kobe dominated the Blazers, Spurs, and Kings. The Spurs and Kings were better than both the Pistons and the Mavs defensively, in an era where rules were less forgiving to the offensive player, especially perimeter players.

Asianiac_24 wrote:

70sFan wrote:

Asianiac_24 wrote:
Kobe scored 62 in 3 quarters against the Mavs that year and averaged more than 40 in the season series. The 06 Mavs for a Finals team was a historically bad defensive team, in a year where perimeter play became easier due to rule changes. Had Kobe went up against the Mavs in the playoffs that year, he’d average over 40

Wade run didn't end at Dallas though. He also dominated Pistons team, the same core which shut down Kobe two years earlier.

That Pistons team was not the same as 2004. Ben Wallace was getting washed by than, and the rule changes made the 04 Pistons style defense impossible. Teams were scoring in the 60s and 70s against the 04 Pistons.

The 2004 Pistons were also a below average offense, while 2006 were a top 5 offense. Ben was DPOY that year and still made 2nd team defense the following season. He was nowhere near washed that year, not sure where you’re getting that from.

I don’t know why people like to assume the 06 Pistons were a paper tiger or something. They were a legit 60+ win team, coming off of 2 straight finals. If Wade wasn’t crazy hot shooting the ball, they probably win their 2nd title in 3 years.

Well, the poll results speak for themselves lol.

No-more-rings wrote:

Asianiac_24 wrote:

70sFan wrote:Wade run didn't end at Dallas though. He also dominated Pistons team, the same core which shut down Kobe two years earlier.

That Pistons team was not the same as 2004. Ben Wallace was getting washed by than, and the rule changes made the 04 Pistons style defense impossible. Teams were scoring in the 60s and 70s against the 04 Pistons.

The 2004 Pistons were also a below average offense, while 2006 were a top 5 offense. Ben was DPOY that year and still made 2nd team defense the following season. He was nowhere near washed that year, not sure where you’re getting that from.

I don’t know why people like to assume the 06 Pistons were a paper tiger or something. They were a legit 60+ win team, coming off of 2 straight finals. If Wade wasn’t crazy hot shooting the ball, they probably win their 2nd title in 3 years.

That same Pistons team got dominated by a young LeBron the very next year, only for LeBron to be absolutely locked down and dominated by the Spurs after. 06/07 Pistons were paper tigers, and the rule changes after 04 made their defense no longer suffocating. If Wade went up against 04 Pistons in 2004 he’d likely be locked down too

No-more-rings wrote:The poll reflects pretty well that it’s clearly Wade even if it’s not a big gap. That seems like a weird stretch to pick for Kobe. 2000, 2004 and 2005 are some of his weakest seasons of his prime-ish run.

Agreed. Kobe 03-08 is a stronger run for me than Kobe 00-05, but still have Wade 06-11 on top...

Wade 06-11 RS: 27.2 PER | .572 TS% | 67.1 WS | .208 WS/48 | 7.8 BPM | +11.0 O/O
Wade 06-11 PO: 26.1 PER | .580 TS% | 10.5 WS | .206 WS/48 | 8.5 BPM | +8.1 O/O

Kobe 03-08 RS: 25.4 PER | .563 TS% | 75.9 WS | .201 WS/48 | 6.2 BPM | +7.6 O/O
Kobe 03-08 PO: 22.5 PER | .545 TS% | 8.7 WS | .144 WS/48 | 5.4 BPM | +9.2 O/O

Kobe 00-05 RS: 23.9 PER | .551 TS% | 68.4 WS | .194 WS/48 | 5.4 BPM | +5.1 O/O
Kobe 00-05 PO: 21.4 PER | .522 TS% | 12.8 WS | .158 WS/48 | 4.8 BPM | +8.7 O/O

Harden 14-19 RS: 27.1 PER | .611 TS% | 88.1 WS | .245 WS/48 | 8.4 BPM | +6.3 O/O
Harden 14-19 PO: 23.7 PER | .571 TS% | 8.8 WS | .186 WS/48 | 7.4 BPM | +8.4 O/O

Asianiac_24 wrote:

No-more-rings wrote:

Asianiac_24 wrote:
That Pistons team was not the same as 2004. Ben Wallace was getting washed by than, and the rule changes made the 04 Pistons style defense impossible. Teams were scoring in the 60s and 70s against the 04 Pistons.

The 2004 Pistons were also a below average offense, while 2006 were a top 5 offense. Ben was DPOY that year and still made 2nd team defense the following season. He was nowhere near washed that year, not sure where you’re getting that from.

I don’t know why people like to assume the 06 Pistons were a paper tiger or something. They were a legit 60+ win team, coming off of 2 straight finals. If Wade wasn’t crazy hot shooting the ball, they probably win their 2nd title in 3 years.

That same Pistons team got dominated by a young LeBron the very next year, only for LeBron to be absolutely locked down and dominated by the Spurs after. 06/07 Pistons were paper tigers, and the rule changes after 04 made their defense no longer suffocating. If Wade went up against 04 Pistons in 2004 he’d likely be locked down too

Wait do you really believe having that washed version of Chris Webber in there instead of Ben Wallace didn’t make them a clear worse team in 07?

I don’t know what Wade would’ve done against the 04 Pistons, but it surely would be better than Kobe’s performance.

Asianiac_24 wrote:

falcolombardi wrote:

Asianiac_24 wrote:
2001 Kobe was arguably better than Shaq in the playoffs and dominated opponents that were way better than anyone Wade went up against in 06. 03 Kobe averaged 30 when teams were scoring in the 80s. Harden in 17-19 put up some all time level scoring numbers.

That seems a stretch

Kobe scored 62 in 3 quarters against the Mavs that year and averaged more than 40 in the season series. The 06 Mavs for a Finals team was a historically bad defensive team, in a year where perimeter play became easier due to rule changes. Had Kobe went up against the Mavs in the playoffs that year, he’d average over 40

Wade faced the 7th, 4th, 5th, and 11th ranked defenses in his Finals MVP run in 2006. Kobe faced the 9th, 7th, 1st, and 5th ranked defenses in 2001. If that's what you're hanging your hat on as the key difference, it's a stretch to say the least.

In the regular season, Kobe had a 24.5 PER on .552 TS%, .196 WS/48, and a 4.8 BPM with on/off of +8.8
In the regular season, Wade had a 27.6 PER on .577 TS%, .239 WS/48, and a 7.7 BPM with on/off of +15.2

In the postseason, Kobe had a 25.0 PER on .555 TS%, .260 WS/48, and a 6.5 BPM with on/off of +14.2
In the postseason, Wade had a 26.9 PER on .593 TS%, .240 WS/48, and a 9.3 BPM with on/off of +22.2

Wade had a 5.13 regular season RAPM from Gitlab and a 2.57 postseason RAPM. His combined RAPM from the 97-14 sample was 4.1.
Kobe had a 2.20 regular season RAPM from Gitlab and a 2.34 postseason RAPM. His combined RAPM from the 97-14 sample was 6.1.

Like you really have to be desperately looking for any criteria to support your position to come to the conclusion that Kobe was better in 2001 than Wade was in 2006. The numbers don't back it up at all.

iggymcfrack wrote:

Asianiac_24 wrote:

falcolombardi wrote:
That seems a stretch

Kobe scored 62 in 3 quarters against the Mavs that year and averaged more than 40 in the season series. The 06 Mavs for a Finals team was a historically bad defensive team, in a year where perimeter play became easier due to rule changes. Had Kobe went up against the Mavs in the playoffs that year, he’d average over 40

Wade faced the 7th, 4th, 5th, and 11th ranked defenses in his Finals MVP run in 2006. Kobe faced the 9th, 7th, 1st, and 5th ranked defenses in 2001. If that's what you're hanging your hat on as the key difference, it's a stretch to say the least.

In the regular season, Kobe had a 24.5 PER on .552 TS%, .196 WS/48, and a 4.8 BPM with on/off of +8.8
In the regular season, Wade had a 27.6 PER on .577 TS%, .239 WS/48, and a 7.7 BPM with on/off of +15.2

In the postseason, Kobe had a 25.0 PER on .555 TS%, .260 WS/48, and a 6.5 BPM with on/off of +14.2
In the postseason, Wade had a 26.9 PER on .593 TS%, .240 WS/48, and a 9.3 BPM with on/off of +22.2

Wade had a 5.13 regular season RAPM from Gitlab and a 2.57 postseason RAPM. His combined RAPM from the 97-14 sample was 4.1.
Kobe had a 2.20 regular season RAPM from Gitlab and a 2.34 postseason RAPM. His combined RAPM from the 97-14 sample was 6.1.

Like you really have to be desperately looking for any criteria to support your position to come to the conclusion that Kobe was better in 2001 than Wade was in 2006. The numbers don't back it up at all.

First of all, early 2000s was the toughest era to score as a perimeter player. FT rate was much lower, scoring was lower, there were less spacing, and defense in general got away with more to perimeter players. 2006 was the year where all the perimeter star players had their scoring jump significantly. Kobe, Iverson, Arenas, LeBron, you name it. They all had great scoring seasons even for their respective standards. 2001 was not that.

Second of all, Kobe dominated the 2 best opponents, the Kings and the Spurs. The 06 Mavs defensively were not on their level, coupled that with the rule changes and the fact that Wade averaged 16 FTs a game which would be impossible in 2001, I fail to see how 06 Wade > 01 Kobe. 01 Kobe was better than Shaq against the 2 best opponents. At the very least they are equal. Kobe Bryant himself averaged over 40 against them in the season series.

Asianiac_24 wrote:

iggymcfrack wrote:

Asianiac_24 wrote:
Kobe scored 62 in 3 quarters against the Mavs that year and averaged more than 40 in the season series. The 06 Mavs for a Finals team was a historically bad defensive team, in a year where perimeter play became easier due to rule changes. Had Kobe went up against the Mavs in the playoffs that year, he’d average over 40

Wade faced the 7th, 4th, 5th, and 11th ranked defenses in his Finals MVP run in 2006. Kobe faced the 9th, 7th, 1st, and 5th ranked defenses in 2001. If that's what you're hanging your hat on as the key difference, it's a stretch to say the least.

In the regular season, Kobe had a 24.5 PER on .552 TS%, .196 WS/48, and a 4.8 BPM with on/off of +8.8
In the regular season, Wade had a 27.6 PER on .577 TS%, .239 WS/48, and a 7.7 BPM with on/off of +15.2

In the postseason, Kobe had a 25.0 PER on .555 TS%, .260 WS/48, and a 6.5 BPM with on/off of +14.2
In the postseason, Wade had a 26.9 PER on .593 TS%, .240 WS/48, and a 9.3 BPM with on/off of +22.2

Wade had a 5.13 regular season RAPM from Gitlab and a 2.57 postseason RAPM. His combined RAPM from the 97-14 sample was 4.1.
Kobe had a 2.20 regular season RAPM from Gitlab and a 2.34 postseason RAPM. His combined RAPM from the 97-14 sample was 6.1.

Like you really have to be desperately looking for any criteria to support your position to come to the conclusion that Kobe was better in 2001 than Wade was in 2006. The numbers don't back it up at all.

First of all, early 2000s was the toughest era to score as a perimeter player. FT rate was much lower, scoring was lower, there were less spacing, and defense in general got away with more to perimeter players. 2006 was the year where all the perimeter star players had their scoring jump significantly. Kobe, Iverson, Arenas, LeBron, you name it. They all had great scoring seasons even for their respective standards. 2001 was not that.

Second of all, Kobe dominated the 2 best opponents, the Kings and the Spurs. The 06 Mavs defensively were not on their level, coupled that with the rule changes and the fact that Wade averaged 16 FTs a game which would be impossible in 2001, I fail to see how 06 Wade > 01 Kobe. 01 Kobe was better than Shaq against the 2 best opponents. At the very least they are equal. Kobe Bryant himself averaged over 40 against them in the season series.

Actually, the Kings only rated 7th in defense. The second best defensive team the '01 Lakers faced was the '76ers in the Finals. Against the Sixers, Kobe averaged 25 PPG on .501 TS%, the worst efficiency mark of any starter on the team. His shooting efficiency and his game score in the Finals were both much worse than Wade had in any series that playoffs.

When Kobe did finally face a defense that ranked worse than the '06 Mavericks in the playoffs the following year against Portland, he averaged 25 PPG on .483 TS%, shooting only 35% from the field. So much for your hypothetical of him averaging 40+.