Top NBA Talent Source of All-Time: #27

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Top NBA Talent Source of All-Time: #27 

Post#1 » by trex_8063 » Sun Jul 31, 2022 1:02 am

How it works
Simple ballot system: 3 votes/ballots [3-2-1 point system]. The "source" with the most points will take the spot.

It looks like interest in this project is limited, so I'm not going to have a designated time-limit for each place [though I don't want to leave each open for 4-5 days]; we'll probably aim for something in the neighborhood of 48 hours each, but we'll see.
This may be one of those projects that fizzles out quick due to lack of interest, but I'm hoping at least 2-3 people will come along with me for it.
There will be no approval of participants; anyone can pop in at any time to vote/contribute, even on a sporadic or part-time basis. No "arguments" will be required to accompany votes, though a list of notable players from each source being voted for is encouraged.....this will help jog memories, as well as stimulate conversation (and may help clarify the "source" in some rare cases where it is ambiguous). Hopefully we'll pick up some participants along the way.

How you want to consider those universities/sources (in terms of considerations of total players vs quality of players, etc) is entirely up to you [though others may wish to debate your selection criteria].

I'm hoping to make it out to around the top 20 [or so] "sources" of all-time for pro [NBA/ABA/BAA/NBL] players, but we'll see.


The "Talent Sources"
We are going to include non-university sources, as to do otherwise just leaves too many relevant players on the table.
Besides, it occurred to me that when scrutinizing the resulting list, one can just mentally exclude the non-university sources [I'll even colour-code those differently to make it easier], and what's left is an ordered list of the universities (as well as an ordered list of other sources)......two birds, right?
The source can be of the following three types:

a) (an American) University/College - if they played even one year at the university, that will be designated the default "source" of that pro player. If a player played at multiple universities, you can mentally factor that in to consideration for ALL universities played at, give preference to the university he had his BEST years at, or to the university he played LONGER at.....whatever; up to you.

b) a Non-USA Country (if not subject to "a" above) - This one is only to be considered a potential source IF they did not attend an American university. Examples would be guys like Dirk Nowitzki, Luka Doncic, Giannis Antetokounmpo, Manu Ginobili, Tony Parker, or Nikola Jokic.......their country of origin is considered the "source".
Someone like Hakeem Olajuwon, otoh, would be considered from the University of Houston [and not Nigeria].

In the event of using this designation, we may have individuals where consensus on just WHERE a player is "from" is debatable. Tony Parker is a good example: born in Belgium to an American father and Dutch mother, but raised in France (confusing already, right?). But most of us consider Tony from France [he played for their national team, too], as that's where he grew up.

And to me, that's what it's more about: where they grew up (rather than where they were born (or the nationality of his parents)). There may end up being a player for whom the "source" country is ambiguous and debatable; but we'll cross that bridge as we come to it (and again: that's why it's good to give at least a partial list of WHO you have in mind when placing a vote, so we can debate things like this as needed).

c) an American Highschool Zone - Self-explanatory: this is for American players who did NOT have a college career, but rather went straight to pro.
Having just "USA" as a single source for all American players who did NOT attend a university is just too great a source......it ends up blowing away all the competition at this point (we've just seen too many great players out of highschool now, it holds too much of a sample-size advantage over any American university).
So I've opted to break it up into three zones, which are as follows....

The East Coast Zone - This includes all states that actually make up part of America's eastern coastline [including Washington D.C. simply because it basically resides within Maryland]. That is: Maine, New Hampshire, Massachusetts, Connecticutt. Rhode Island, New York, New Jersey, Delaware, Maryland [including D.C.], Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina, Georgia, and Florida.

The East-Central Zone - This includes the states west of our "East Coast Zone", but east of [or inclusive of, in one case] the Missouri River. That is: West Virginia, Vermont, Pennsylvania, Alabama, Mississippi, Lousiana, Kentucky, Tennessee, Ohio, Indiana, Illinois, Iowa, Michigan, Wisconsin, Minnesota, and Missouri.

The Western Zone - All the states that are left: Texas, Arkansas, North Dakota, South Dakota, Nebraska, Kansas, Oklahoma, Colorado, Utah, New Mexico, Arizona, Nevada, Wyoming, Idaho, Montana, Washington, Oregon, California, Alaska, Hawaii.


That's 14 states in the East Coast Zone, 16 in the East-Central Zone, and 20 in the Western Zone.
If you want to know why I broke them up in this manner, I wanted zones that had some geographical rhyme or reason, but also zones that had similar overall population.....
The East Coast Zone has a population of just over 108 million by recent census.
The East-Central Zone has just under 102 million.
The Western Zone has just over 119 million.

So the Western Zone has the largest population, BUT that's only by recent census. If we jumped back 60-70 years ago, that was not at all the case. Nearer the start of BAA/NBA history, the Western Zone would have been the LEAST populous zone. The population of states like California, Arizona, Nevada, and even Texas have really taken off in more modern eras.
Basketball also started out East, and spread west more gradually. So I intentionally made it the largest zone [today] to compensate somewhat for that consideration, while still having some manner of geographical demarkation to go with.

Gimme' your top 3 picks [in order] for the #27 spot.....

1. UCLA
2. North Carolina
3. Kentucky
4. Kansas
5. East Coast Zone (highschool)
6. Duke
7. Georgetown
8. East-Central Zone (highschool)
9. Michigan State
10. Wake Forest
11. Houston
12. Ohio State
13. Indiana
14. LSU
15. Arizona
16. Texas
17. Michigan
18. UCONN
19. Marquette
20. Georgia Tech
21. Spain
22. USC
23. Illinois
24. DePaul
25. Villanova
26. Minnesota

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Re: Top NBA Talent Source of All-Time: #27 

Post#2 » by penbeast0 » Sun Jul 31, 2022 2:42 am

Congratulations to you and the other participants on keeping the project going this far. Every answer takes a lot of research; it's very impressive!
“Most people use statistics like a drunk man uses a lamppost; more for support than illumination,” Andrew Lang.
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Re: Top NBA Talent Source of All-Time: #27 

Post#3 » by falcolombardi » Sun Jul 31, 2022 3:16 am

penbeast0 wrote:Congratulations to you and the other participants on keeping the project going this far. Every answer takes a lot of research; it's very impressive!


I actually was unfamiliar with most schools nba talent before joining this project

I have learned a lot by participating on it
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Re: Top NBA Talent Source of All-Time: #27 

Post#4 » by trex_8063 » Mon Aug 1, 2022 3:09 am

I'll try to get Oregon State added later.

I want to point out at this point, however, that there is not a single source that is even within 100 cumulative WS of Notre Dame.
There are not two sources within 200 of them.

That has to count for something, no?


Titles (as top 3)
San Francisco - 11 (Bill Russell; additional titles for KC Jones and Bill Cartwright, but likely not as top-3 players)
France - 4 (Tony Parker)
Notre Dame - 2 (Bill Laimbeer)
Cincinnati - 1 (Oscar Robertson)
Western Zone - 1??? (Tyson Chandler on '11 Mavs??)
Serbia - 0
St. John's - 0
Louisiana Tech - 0

Total WS
Notre Dame - 769.0
St. John's - 664.0
Cincinnati - 564.3
Louisiana Tech - 469.6
San Francisco - 429.2
France - 396.7
Western Zone - 317.8
Serbia - 275.9

Total Players (Mean WS)
Notre Dame - 60 (12.8)
St. John's - 55 (12.1)
Cincinnati - 39 (14.5)
San Francisco - 25 (17.2)
Serbia - 24 (11.5)
France - 21 (18.89)
Louisiana Tech - 9 (52.2)
Western Zone - 9 identified so far (35.31)

Score [the one I'd previously shared]
Notre Dame - 333.52
St. John's - 315.62
Louisiana Tech - 299.29
Cincinnati - 260.39
France - 206.80
San Francisco - 195.83
Western Zone - 155.11
Serbia - 154.86

All-Star Selections
Cincinnati - 20
Louisiana Tech - 19
St. John's - 17 [admittedly, several are from the 1950s]
San Francisco - 17
Notre Dame - 15
France - 9
Serbia - 5
Western Zone - 3

MVP's
San Francisco - 5
Serbia - 2
Louisiana Tech - 2
Cincinnati - 1
Notre Dame/Western Zone/France/St. John's - 0 each


Regarding France's numbers [newly added this thread]:
31 players are listed as born in France on bbref......but on closer exam you find several grew up in America and went to American universities. A few others grew up in France, but then attended American universities, most showing dramatic improvement while in that NCAA program. The one exception is Yakhouba Diawara, who entered Pepperdine in his early 20's, playing two seasons there [without showing notable improvement, by the numbers]; so I've credited the second half only of his meager NBA career to France.
Plus there's Tony Parker---who's not listed among those 31 because he was born in Belgium, but we know he's a product of France.

btw, found one more player to be credited to the East Coast Zone: William Howard. Born in France, but grew up in Maryland, came to NBA out of highschool. Played just 2 games in his NBA career. :-?

France is interesting: some nice talent at the top in Tony Parker and Rudy Gobert, followed up with Nicolas Batum, Boris Diaw, Evan Fournier (plus Ian Mahinmi and Alexis Ajinca). But it fairly well falls off a cliff after that. Their weighted avg WS is pretty strong (49.79), and their mean is decent as you can see above. The median WS is just 2.4, though, as there are 10 players with basically non-existent careers ranging from -0.5 to 1.1 WS.
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Re: Top NBA Talent Source of All-Time: #27 

Post#5 » by falcolombardi » Sat Aug 6, 2022 12:03 am

Notredame

total of nba players: 59 ( high)

mvp level players: 0? (low) (dantley?)

notable all star level players: 1 (low) adrian dantley

Borderline stars: laimbeer, wooldridge?

Also motable guys as austin carr, kelly tripucka or joe kleine

Total win shares: 769 (high)

Vs

France

total of nba players: 40 ( mid) (per real gm database)

mvp level players: 0? (low)

notable all star level players: 3 ( mid) (parker, gobert, noah)

Notable players: batum, diaw,

Total win shares: 396 (low)

Vs

Cincinnati

total of nba players: 38 ( mid)

mvp level players: 1 (Mid) (Oscar)

notable all star level players: 2 ( mid) van exel?, twiman

Notable high end players:nick van exel? lance stephenson?

Total win shares: 564 (mid)

Vs

San Francisco

total of nba players: 24 ( low)

mvp level players: 1 (Mid) (Russel)

notable all star players: 1 ( low) ( Kc jones)

Notable players: Bill Cartwright

Total win shares: 429 (mid)

Vs

St John's

total of nba players: 48( mid)

mvp level players: 0 (low)

notable all star players: 5 ( high) ( Max Zalofzky, metta world peace, marj jackson, Dick McGuire, chris mullin)

Notable players: tyrone corbin, quentin richardson, etc

Total win shares: 664 (high)

Vs

Serbia

Total of nba players (24) (low)

Mvp level players (1) (mid) (jokic)

All star level player (2) (mid) (peja stojakovic, divac)

Notable players: Bogdanovic, bjelica

Total win shares 275 (mid)

Vs

Lousiana tech

Total nba players (9)

Mvp level players (1) (mid) (Karl malone)

All star level players (1) (low) (paul millsap)

Notable players: Pj Brown

Total win shares 469 (mid)
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Re: Top NBA Talent Source of All-Time: #27 

Post#6 » by falcolombardi » Sat Aug 6, 2022 12:09 am

I have san francisco inmediately ahead of the davidson/lousiana tech/germany trio for top heavy schools

I have france above serbia by a slim margin as jokic career is too short yet for me to make a huge difference at the top even though he is essily a superior player to parker

Jokic/peja/divac/bogdanovic vs gobert/parker/batum/diaw is fairly close overall imo but france wins slightly in depth for me.

Is so close that i am considering if i should go with the best player (aka serbia)

Russel career easily beats everyone left but kc jones and bill cartwright is weaker than france and serbia top 2-4's

Right now leaning france>serbia>san francisco as the differences in depth feel significsnt enough even though at the top 1 spot is the opposite
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Re: Top NBA Talent Source of All-Time: #27 

Post#7 » by falcolombardi » Sat Aug 6, 2022 12:16 am

Then we hace cincinatti vs notredame where the top of cincinati is stronger enough for me (oscar>>dantley is where i am leaning) and cincinati next best players are about even with notredame ones

Then there is st johns which has a bit more high end players than the other sourves but not by too much
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Re: Top NBA Talent Source of All-Time: #27 

Post#8 » by falcolombardi » Sat Aug 6, 2022 12:23 am

I feel comfortable with my pick of cincinati as first so i will stick to it

I am really unsure about #2, i will go with notredame here but i am not sure how to evaluate dantley. Still that win shares edge over tgw rest of the schools is so massive it has to count for somethingh wheb determining depth strenght

I then will go with san francisco third. Honestly talked myself (wrote myself?) Into then as i was writing this. When the top schools are all so close at the top I feel uncomfortable ranking a school whose best player is chris mulling over one with bill russel

The way i see it bill russel career is worth like mullin mark jackson and metta world peace together

My temptative picks

1-cincinati (no changes)
2- Notredame (unsure)
3- San francisco (unsure)
4-St johns (unsure)
5-serbia (peja/divac/bogdanovic = gobert/diaw/batum and i think jokic> parker career already)
6- France
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Re: Top NBA Talent Source of All-Time: #27 

Post#9 » by trex_8063 » Sun Aug 14, 2022 3:25 am

Making tentative votes (having re-considered a little), swinging a little back toward appreciation of depth....

1. Notre Dame
2. San Francisco
3. St. John's


Top HM's: France, Cincy

Any picks, jalen?

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Re: Top NBA Talent Source of All-Time: #27 

Post#10 » by falcolombardi » Sun Aug 14, 2022 10:32 am

trex_8063 wrote:Making tentative votes (having re-considered a little), swinging a little back toward appreciation of depth....

1. Notre Dame
2. San Francisco
3. St. John's


Top HM's: France, Cincy

Any picks, jalen?

jalen green wrote:.



He said he would be busy for a bit

I personally dont mind waiting for our 3 people voting pool to be complete before continuin the project. I got no issue continuing where we left a few weeks or a month from now for example

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