5 year plus-minus of various all-time nba peaks(Feat. Shaq, Lebron, Jordan, Robinson and Curry)

[VanWest82]

This is just as disingenuous as the many general board anti-MJ rants about how 94 Bulls were just as good without MJ.

The author tries to bury his ultra biased take in a bunch of pro-MJ film and analysis but his statistical agenda is pretty obvious.

What is this?

Anti-MJ rants on the GB? Where?

Taylor has Jordan’s peak as his GOAT peak. What’s his “agenda”?

Somehow, despite tens of thousands of posts, you are still new to RealGM. Maybe try reading the thread first before responding.

[VanWest82]

Yes, Jordan was the best defensive player on a team with Pippen, Robinson, and Ewing, because of his high steal numbers.

Ah yes, the token big man is automatically more impactful than the non-big man defensively, regardless of what happened on the court. Did you watch these games? How many steals/deflections/contests/break ups would need to happen for you to consider that a former DPOY was actually the best defender out there? 40? 400? 4000? Seriously, how far are you willing to take this based entirely on your perceived reputation of players?

But in 2008 obviously we do not look at steal numbers anymore, because Kobe was “the stopper” (of whom? Patty Mills?), and the fact he took more shots per minute than several other more efficient scorers on the team is actually his sacrifice.

Kobe guard POA that Olympics, or at least took on the best opposing wing scorer. His two way load was different. It's worth taking into account which the other poster didn't remotely do. And yes, Scottie had that role on the 92 team. The difference is MJ averaged 9.6 steals per 48. Think about that number.

[falcolombardi]

Yes, Jordan was the best defensive player on a team with Pippen, Robinson, and Ewing, because of his high steal numbers.

Ah yes, the token big man is automatically more impactful than the non-big man defensively, regardless of what happened on the court. Did you watch these games? How many steals/deflections/contests/break ups would need to happen for you to consider that a former DPOY was actually the best defender out there? 40? 400? 4000? Seriously, how far are you willing to take this based entirely on your perceived reputation of players?

But in 2008 obviously we do not look at steal numbers anymore, because Kobe was “the stopper” (of whom? Patty Mills?), and the fact he took more shots per minute than several other more efficient scorers on the team is actually his sacrifice.

Kobe guard POA that Olympics, or at least took on the best opposing wing scorer. His two way load was different. It's worth taking into account which the other poster didn't remotely do. And yes, Scottie had that role on the 92 team. The difference is MJ averaged 9.6 steals per 48. Think about that number.

I really, really dont want to get into a goddamn olympics comparision to evaluate these players lol. But i had to answer these two points (damn it, i got into it!)

Ewing and robinson are not "token big man" but some of the most effective defensive centers and rim protectors in league history

9.6 steals is impressive but it just kindaaaaa goes to show that maybe those teams usa faced in the 92 olympics were just not up to par with what usa faced in the future lol.

[AEnigma]

Sadly against 1992 international team competition I would need to see at least 9.7 steals per 48 to consider it.

But against 2008 international team competition, I suppose could settle for 6.5 stocks per 48.

[VanWest82]

Ewing and robinson are not "token big man" but some of the most effective defensive centers and rim protectors in league history

Goes to my point about discarding what actually happened on the court in lieu of reputation.

9.6 steals is impressive but it just kindaaaaa goes to show that maybe those teams usa faced in the 92 olympics were just not up to par with what usa faced in the future lol.

I acknowledged this fact in my original post about the dream team. But also, stats are stats. If we're going to drill down into what actually happened then what actually happened was MJ destroyed these teams defensively. It wasn't Ewing and Robinson blocking or deterring shots at the rim because it didn't get to that point. It was Scottie Ding up and MJ taking the ball away...again and again and again. That's how Dream team won.

[LukaTheGOAT]

.

[AEnigma]

Kobe took over in the fourth quarter, we can give that to him. But does that mean he was the best player? Does that mean he was justified in taking shots away from players at other times? It is a nice narrative, but that is all it is.

[LukaTheGOAT]

Kobe took over in the fourth quarter, we can give that to him. But does that mean he was the best player? Does that mean he was justified in taking shots away from players at other times? It is a nice narrative, but that is all it is.

Also, I don't quite get the whole, "it was too big of a moment comment" either. Especially considering Wade had a Finals MVP at this point, something that Kobe didn't. Yet the Olympics Final was something that Wade nor Lebron wasn't prepared for?

04 Lebron didn't play much in the Olympics (played well when he die) either because NBA superstars were playing, while in Jordan's time only college players played. Yet Lebron is being criticized. I imagine he once again is speaking on things he knows nothing about.

[VanWest82]

Kobe took over in the fourth quarter, we can give that to him. But does that mean he was the best player? Does that mean he was justified in taking shots away from players at other times? It is a nice narrative, but that is all it is.

Also, I don't quite get the whole, "it was too big of a moment comment" either. Especially considering Wade had a Finals MVP at this point, something that Kobe didn't. Yet the Olympics Final was something that Wade nor Lebron wasn't prepared for?

04 Lebron didn't play much in the Olympics (played well when he die) either because NBA superstars were playing, while in Jordan's time only college players played. Yet Lebron is being criticized. I imagine he once again is speaking on things he knows nothing about.

Did you watch the game? How do you reconcile what actually happened with your post?

[VanWest82]

.

Good decision on deleting this

[falcolombardi]

Ewing and robinson are not "token big man" but some of the most effective defensive centers and rim protectors in league history

Goes to my point about discarding what actually happened on the court in lieu of reputation.

9.6 steals is impressive but it just kindaaaaa goes to show that maybe those teams usa faced in the 92 olympics were just not up to par with what usa faced in the future lol.

I acknowledged this fact in my original post about the dream team. But also, stats are stats. If we're going to drill down into what actually happened then what actually happened was MJ destroyed these teams defensively. It wasn't Ewing and Robinson blocking or deterring shots at the rim because it didn't get to that point. It was Scottie Ding up and MJ taking the ball away...again and again and again. That's how Dream team won.

That a rival guard gets what would be 8 steals per game in regular nba minutes speaks more of the talent gap than of jordan himself is my point here

There is a reason jordan didnt average 7-8 steals a game in the nba even in his most aggresively steal heavy years.

I would be surprised if somethingh close to it ever happened even for a like 2 series stretch

[VanWest82]

That a rival guard gets what would be 8 steals per game in regular nba minutes speaks more of the talent gap than of jordan himself is my point here

There is a reason jordan didnt average 7-8 steals a game in the nba even in his most aggresively steal heavy years.

I would be surprised if somethingh close to it ever happened even for a like 2 series stretch

Right but that's not the point. The other poster was trying to disingenuously compare Jordan's Olympic impact with Kobe and Lebron. I responded by saying his analysis was BS which it was. Jordan destroyed the 92 Olympics with his defensive impact. And yes, he did it by crushing inferior players, just like Lebron and Kobe crushed inferior players. And perhaps the Dream team opponents were even more inferior which I acknowledged from the beginning, which is why this is a dumb argument to begin with, which you also pointed out.

[falcolombardi]

That a rival guard gets what would be 8 steals per game in regular nba minutes speaks more of the talent gap than of jordan himself is my point here

There is a reason jordan didnt average 7-8 steals a game in the nba even in his most aggresively steal heavy years.

I would be surprised if somethingh close to it ever happened even for a like 2 series stretch

Right but that's not the point. The other poster was trying to disingenuously compare Jordan's Olympic impact with Kobe and Lebron. I responded by saying his analysis was BS which it was. Jordan destroyed the 92 Olympics with his defensive impact. And yes, he did it by crushing inferior players, just like Lebron and Kobe crushed inferior players. And perhaps the Dream team opponents were even more inferior which I acknowledged from the beginning, which is why this is a dumb argument to begin with, which you also pointed out.

At least we can finally agree on that

I love olympics basketball but it really doesnt hold much relevance here lol

[VanWest82]

That a rival guard gets what would be 8 steals per game in regular nba minutes speaks more of the talent gap than of jordan himself is my point here

There is a reason jordan didnt average 7-8 steals a game in the nba even in his most aggresively steal heavy years.

I would be surprised if somethingh close to it ever happened even for a like 2 series stretch

Right but that's not the point. The other poster was trying to disingenuously compare Jordan's Olympic impact with Kobe and Lebron. I responded by saying his analysis was BS which it was. Jordan destroyed the 92 Olympics with his defensive impact. And yes, he did it by crushing inferior players, just like Lebron and Kobe crushed inferior players. And perhaps the Dream team opponents were even more inferior which I acknowledged from the beginning, which is why this is a dumb argument to begin with, which you also pointed out.

At least we can finally agree on that

I love olympics basketball but it really doesnt hold much relevance here lol

Unless it's an NBA star who's getting exposed on the international scene I'm not going to name names but there are several guys who didn't translate and who we should probably re-evaluate in that context.

[LukaTheGOAT]

MJ not being the best player in every setting isn't disingenuous, it is the truth. Trying to draw comparisons regarding the portability that certain posters have cried about is valid, because in the end, portability is a largely theoretical concept, and therefore asking questions regarding its philosophy are valid. Charles Barkley was the best in 1992, and would be the best again in 1996. Plenty of facts, and evidence going against Jordan here. No one's interpretation is law.

[homecourtloss]

MJ not being the best player in every setting isn't disingenuous, it is the truth. Trying to draw comparisons regarding the portability that certain posters have cried about is valid, because in the end, portability is a largely theoretical concept, and therefore asking questions regarding its philosophy are valid. Charles Barkley was the best in 1992, and would be the best again in 1996. Plenty of facts, and evidence going against Jordan here. No one's interpretation is law.

MJ Airness Jordan not the best at something????Sounds like one of the myriad anti-MJ rants he was talking about.

[Jaivl]

Right but that's not the point. The other poster was trying to disingenuously compare Jordan's Olympic impact with Kobe and Lebron. I responded by saying his analysis was BS which it was. Jordan destroyed the 92 Olympics with his defensive impact. And yes, he did it by crushing inferior players, just like Lebron and Kobe crushed inferior players. And perhaps the Dream team opponents were even more inferior which I acknowledged from the beginning, which is why this is a dumb argument to begin with, which you also pointed out.

At least we can finally agree on that

I love olympics basketball but it really doesnt hold much relevance here lol

Unless it's an NBA star who's getting exposed on the international scene I'm not going to name names but there are several guys who didn't translate and who we should probably re-evaluate in that context.

I mean, Giannis has been nothing until recently, but when facing a level of competition similar to the 92 Olympics -sans Croatia- (Spain's 2022 team is weak) he just absolutely ROFLstomped us.

FIBA should not matter that much for NBA superstars, anyway. UNLESS it's in the Tim-MEH Duncan vs K-OH!-be comparison.

[jalengreen]

That a rival guard gets what would be 8 steals per game in regular nba minutes speaks more of the talent gap than of jordan himself is my point here

There is a reason jordan didnt average 7-8 steals a game in the nba even in his most aggresively steal heavy years.

I would be surprised if somethingh close to it ever happened even for a like 2 series stretch

Right but that's not the point. The other poster was trying to disingenuously compare Jordan's Olympic impact with Kobe and Lebron. I responded by saying his analysis was BS which it was. Jordan destroyed the 92 Olympics with his defensive impact. And yes, he did it by crushing inferior players, just like Lebron and Kobe crushed inferior players. And perhaps the Dream team opponents were even more inferior which I acknowledged from the beginning, which is why this is a dumb argument to begin with, which you also pointed out.

the discussion recently has been about lebron’s scalability compared to jordan, specifically lebron’s ability to maintain his strong offensive impact when playing more off-ball due to having stronger teammates

the olympics are a setting where players like lebron and jordan will naturally be asked to play off-ball more. is it the same playing environment as the nba? no, of course not. i don’t see why that means it can’t be discussed, i think it’s an interesting question actually

if one’s thesis is that lebron is able to maintain his high offensive production while playing off-ball surrounded by stars in an international setting, but not in the nba, it begs the question of why that is: what part of the ruleset/gameplay is specifically benefiting lebron in international gameplay?

so im a bit confused as to why we’re all harping in on defense and steal numbers here. the point clearly seems to be focused on offensive production in an off-ball role.

[jalengreen]

never understood why barnes’ 2016 finals shooting woes get brought up in the same way as injuries do. unless he was actually injured and i missed that? but i always just viewed him as a young player in the biggest and highest pressure games of his life who simply… choked. don’t see why that’s something that needs to be accounted for.

[LAL1947]

Does anyone ever look at Olympics play when trying to determine impact? We have an example of MJ, Lebron, and Kobe (said to be largely a carbon copy of MJ in many ways), playing with more talented teammates where not everything is centered around them.

No, but perhaps they should look at the Olympics too... especially at the 2004 Olympics and what a catastrophical failure that was for Team USA. Captained by Duncan and with Wade, Iverson, Marion, Odom, Lebron, Marbury, etc on the team. All of them beaten by Manu Ginobili's Argentina just 1 year after Manu was reportedly carried in "the biggest all-time carry job". I can't see Kenny the Jet or Vernon Maxwell leading Argentina to victory over Team USA, can you?

Oh, and it needed Kobe's leadership to right that ship.