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https://www.yahoo.com/sports/bill-russell-nba-celtics-greatest-basketball-player-of-all-time-dies-at-88-172445014.html

One of - if not the - greatest ever.

RIP Big man

I don't think people realize how incredible Russell's career truly was. Even though it's fine to have other players at the GOAT position, I think nobody else has as credible argument as Russell. He is truly the greatest player ever and he's bigger than the sport we all love.

He was the first player that I remember calling "my favorite player". The fact that my brother was a Wilt fan made interesting viewing when Russell and Wilt went head-to-head on TV; probably a tad too loud for our parents' sake! Even then, there were three things that stood out in my mind watching him as a kid: 1) his ability to guard someone on the outside and yet use that speed to dash back into the key to block a shot or grab the defensive rebound. While that may not sound impressive to young kids watching today, you have to remember that NOBODY did that back then. All other centers were like cement buildings under/near the basket. 2) his skill in the "science" of rebounding. Unlike Wilt and Kareem who rarely boxed out and used their superior height and length to rebound, Russell was the master at how to get position, box out, and how to 'touch' his opponent in a way that kept him from jumping for the rebound. and 3), that uncanny ability to block a shot and more often than not, have his teammate pick up the deflection. It just happened way too often to just be a coincidence. It's been over 50 years since I saw him play and yet those images are still firmly ingrained in my brain. I may have trouble remembering my grandkids' birthdays, but I vividly remember watching Russell and being amazed by him.

Unless I'm mistaken Wilt only ever had praise for Bill, which is saying a lot

henshao wrote:Unless I'm mistaken Wilt only ever had praise for Bill, which is saying a lot

I believe you are mistaken.

Russell's comments regarding how Chamberlain came out of their final game led to a relationship that was fractured for a long time (until late in Chamberlain's life). I don't know to what extent it was openly hostile but certainly frosty. Skimming "A View from Above" in a list ranking the top 5 centers he lists Russell top then implicitly(? ... maybe explicitly) calls himself better having not listed himself, anyway he says he "might like Russell less than some of the other guys" but that it doesn't affect how he rates him as a player. Further to the fracture (p183, paperback) he outright asks for an apology from Russell and goes on to assert that Russell hasn't done so, not because he hasn't done anything wrong but simply said, "No, I can't apologize. I'm not that kind of guy" (p184). I have a vague recollection that he may have said something to the effect that he was a bigger person in defeat than Russell in victory though it's vague and could be something where the phrasing and nuance matters.

This isn't to paint either man in a bad light, but I think Wilt said less than praising things of Russell.

Well, I mean in a basketball sense. He considered Russell the #1 center of all time if he excluded himself. Obviously both of those men were deeply complex individuals and their relationship as well.

I think that one of the things I'll miss most about Russell is his laugh. Man had an infectious laugh.



In terms of overall greatness, I have him somewhere in the 1-4 range (with Lebron, Jordan, and Kareem). Hard for me to put him any lower than that, considering just how huge his defensive impact was.

Owly wrote:

henshao wrote:Unless I'm mistaken Wilt only ever had praise for Bill, which is saying a lot

I believe you are mistaken.

Russell's comments regarding how Chamberlain came out of their final game led to a relationship that was fractured for a long time (until late in Chamberlain's life). I don't know to what extent it was openly hostile but certainly frosty. Skimming "A View from Above" in a list ranking the top 5 centers he lists Russell top then implicitly(? ... maybe explicitly) calls himself better having not listed himself, anyway he says he "might like Russell less than some of the other guys" but that it doesn't affect how he rates him as a player. Further to the fracture (p183, paperback) he outright asks for an apology from Russell and goes on to assert that Russell hasn't done so, not because he hasn't done anything wrong but simply said, "No, I can't apologize. I'm not that kind of guy" (p184). I have a vague recollection that he may have said something to the effect that he was a bigger person in defeat than Russell in victory though it's vague and could be something where the phrasing and nuance matters.

This isn't to paint either man in a bad light, but I think Wilt said less than praising things of Russell.

henshao wrote:Well, I mean in a basketball sense. He considered Russell the #1 center of all time if he excluded himself. Obviously both of those men were deeply complex individuals and their relationship as well.

To be clear I would argue are mistaken by this meaning too.

I'd suggest you wouldn't have to search hard to find either back-handed compliments e.g. "Russell was content - and secure enough - to let others score (it helped that he was not what you'd call a great shooter)" (AVfA, p102) or comparisons between himself and Russell designed to promote himself and highlight Russell limitations "Russell never had the talent to score fifty points" (and just a couple of lines later) "You never saw three players on my team guarding Bill Russell" (AVfA p104). Then after some discussion of their perceived personas and his role as the villain and then Russell's later perception (in light of apparent inability to handle an executive or even coaching job, perception of him as arrogant, second marriage to "a white lady") the paragraph closes "There was never anything said about his foul shooting - when in fact it was often worse than mine" (AVfA, p107).

It might be argued to be an extension of their fallout - hard to parse out as the icy relationship would last the majority of Chamberlain's adult life - but regardless in this 'with regard to playing' framing "only ever had praise" simply does not ring true.

Again this is not to say either was right or wrong and as you note these are complex human beings. Still despite the sadness of Bill's passing, I think there should be accuracy in recording their relationship.


fwiw I found the quote about "bigger person". It's in Wilt's first autobiog ... it's not quite exactly that ... it says he "grew more as a man in defeat than Russell did in victory" but goes further calling Bill a "shallower man for all his basketball triumphs, and rather than being angry or envious over his victories and his gloating and his raps at me, I feel sorry for him." (Wilt:JLAO7FBMWLND, '73, p223, cf p220-223).

Owly wrote:

henshao wrote:Unless I'm mistaken Wilt only ever had praise for Bill, which is saying a lot

I believe you are mistaken.

Russell's comments regarding how Chamberlain came out of their final game led to a relationship that was fractured for a long time (until late in Chamberlain's life). I don't know to what extent it was openly hostile but certainly frosty. Skimming "A View from Above" in a list ranking the top 5 centers he lists Russell top then implicitly(? ... maybe explicitly) calls himself better having not listed himself, anyway he says he "might like Russell less than some of the other guys" but that it doesn't affect how he rates him as a player. Further to the fracture (p183, paperback) he outright asks for an apology from Russell and goes on to assert that Russell hasn't done so, not because he hasn't done anything wrong but simply said, "No, I can't apologize. I'm not that kind of guy" (p184). I have a vague recollection that he may have said something to the effect that he was a bigger person in defeat than Russell in victory though it's vague and could be something where the phrasing and nuance matters.

This isn't to paint either man in a bad light, but I think Wilt said less than praising things of Russell.

Makes sense, tbh.

Wilt wasn't exactly a humble guy... yet he was humbled by Russell many times.

Yeah, he averaged 5487684 ppg but all of these guys play to win. Losing hurts no matter what.

Owly wrote:

Owly wrote:

henshao wrote:Unless I'm mistaken Wilt only ever had praise for Bill, which is saying a lot

I believe you are mistaken.

Russell's comments regarding how Chamberlain came out of their final game led to a relationship that was fractured for a long time (until late in Chamberlain's life). I don't know to what extent it was openly hostile but certainly frosty. Skimming "A View from Above" in a list ranking the top 5 centers he lists Russell top then implicitly(? ... maybe explicitly) calls himself better having not listed himself, anyway he says he "might like Russell less than some of the other guys" but that it doesn't affect how he rates him as a player. Further to the fracture (p183, paperback) he outright asks for an apology from Russell and goes on to assert that Russell hasn't done so, not because he hasn't done anything wrong but simply said, "No, I can't apologize. I'm not that kind of guy" (p184). I have a vague recollection that he may have said something to the effect that he was a bigger person in defeat than Russell in victory though it's vague and could be something where the phrasing and nuance matters.

This isn't to paint either man in a bad light, but I think Wilt said less than praising things of Russell.

henshao wrote:Well, I mean in a basketball sense. He considered Russell the #1 center of all time if he excluded himself. Obviously both of those men were deeply complex individuals and their relationship as well.

To be clear I would argue are mistaken by this meaning too.

I'd suggest you wouldn't have to search hard to find either back-handed compliments e.g. "Russell was content - and secure enough - to let others score (it helped that he was not what you'd call a great shooter)" (AVfA, p102) or comparisons between himself and Russell designed to promote himself and highlight Russell limitations "Russell never had the talent to score fifty points" (and just a couple of lines later) "You never saw three players on my team guarding Bill Russell" (AVfA p104). Then after some discussion of their perceived personas and his role as the villain and then Russell's later perception (in light of apparent inability to handle an executive or even coaching job, perception of him as arrogant, second marriage to "a white lady") the paragraph closes "There was never anything said about his foul shooting - when in fact it was often worse than mine" (AVfA, p107).

It might be argued to be an extension of their fallout - hard to parse out as the icy relationship would last the majority of Chamberlain's adult life - but regardless in this 'with regard to playing' framing "only ever had praise" simply does not ring true.

Again this is not to say either was right or wrong and as you note these are complex human beings. Still despite the sadness of Bill's passing, I think there should be accuracy in recording their relationship.


fwiw I found the quote about "bigger person". It's in Wilt's first autobiog ... it's not quite exactly that ... it says he "grew more as a man in defeat than Russell did in victory" but goes further calling Bill a "shallower man for all his basketball triumphs, and rather than being angry or envious over his victories and his gloating and his raps at me, I feel sorry for him." (Wilt:JLAO7FBMWLND, '73, p223, cf p220-223).

I see it the other way; a begrudging compliment is the most honest of all. In reading Wilt's words I am reminded of the movie Gattaca. The genetically engineered Jerome Morrow "was never meant to be one step down on the podium." God's gift to basketball was never as successful as Bill Russell and as simultaneously talented and intelligent as Wilt was I think that bothered him on almost a spiritual level.

70sFan wrote:I don't think people realize how incredible Russell's career truly was. Even though it's fine to have other players at the GOAT position, I think nobody else has as credible argument as Russell. He is truly the greatest player ever and he's bigger than the sport we all love.

Yeah, even though for me LeBron has long passed him in terms of "best basketball players", Russell is absolutely The Greatest.

henshao wrote:

Owly wrote:

Owly wrote:I believe you are mistaken.

Russell's comments regarding how Chamberlain came out of their final game led to a relationship that was fractured for a long time (until late in Chamberlain's life). I don't know to what extent it was openly hostile but certainly frosty. Skimming "A View from Above" in a list ranking the top 5 centers he lists Russell top then implicitly(? ... maybe explicitly) calls himself better having not listed himself, anyway he says he "might like Russell less than some of the other guys" but that it doesn't affect how he rates him as a player. Further to the fracture (p183, paperback) he outright asks for an apology from Russell and goes on to assert that Russell hasn't done so, not because he hasn't done anything wrong but simply said, "No, I can't apologize. I'm not that kind of guy" (p184). I have a vague recollection that he may have said something to the effect that he was a bigger person in defeat than Russell in victory though it's vague and could be something where the phrasing and nuance matters.

This isn't to paint either man in a bad light, but I think Wilt said less than praising things of Russell.

henshao wrote:Well, I mean in a basketball sense. He considered Russell the #1 center of all time if he excluded himself. Obviously both of those men were deeply complex individuals and their relationship as well.

To be clear I would argue are mistaken by this meaning too.

I'd suggest you wouldn't have to search hard to find either back-handed compliments e.g. "Russell was content - and secure enough - to let others score (it helped that he was not what you'd call a great shooter)" (AVfA, p102) or comparisons between himself and Russell designed to promote himself and highlight Russell limitations "Russell never had the talent to score fifty points" (and just a couple of lines later) "You never saw three players on my team guarding Bill Russell" (AVfA p104). Then after some discussion of their perceived personas and his role as the villain and then Russell's later perception (in light of apparent inability to handle an executive or even coaching job, perception of him as arrogant, second marriage to "a white lady") the paragraph closes "There was never anything said about his foul shooting - when in fact it was often worse than mine" (AVfA, p107).

It might be argued to be an extension of their fallout - hard to parse out as the icy relationship would last the majority of Chamberlain's adult life - but regardless in this 'with regard to playing' framing "only ever had praise" simply does not ring true.

Again this is not to say either was right or wrong and as you note these are complex human beings. Still despite the sadness of Bill's passing, I think there should be accuracy in recording their relationship.


fwiw I found the quote about "bigger person". It's in Wilt's first autobiog ... it's not quite exactly that ... it says he "grew more as a man in defeat than Russell did in victory" but goes further calling Bill a "shallower man for all his basketball triumphs, and rather than being angry or envious over his victories and his gloating and his raps at me, I feel sorry for him." (Wilt:JLAO7FBMWLND, '73, p223, cf p220-223).

I see it the other way; a begrudging compliment is the most honest of all. In reading Wilt's words I am reminded of the movie Gattaca. The genetically engineered Jerome Morrow "was never meant to be one step down on the podium." God's gift to basketball was never as successful as Bill Russell and as simultaneously talented and intelligent as Wilt was I think that bothered him on almost a spiritual level.

Don't want to belabor this point in this particular thread but I don't think there is a way offered which allows you to proffer an "other way".

I'm not opining on motivation or meaning or what was real in their friendship or the causes of their psychodrama or how those feelings alter what they said about each other and how we should read them or anything like that.

I'm just offering instances where Wilt was indeed critical of Russell.

Fwiw, I'd suggest more broadly that many/most (at least the most vocal, most heard) players tend to believe their era was the toughest/best and their rivals were the toughest opponents. It's the most "natural", easiest self-interested view.

Owly wrote:Fwiw, I'd suggest more broadly that many/most (at least the most vocal, most heard) players tend to believe their era was the toughest/best and their rivals were the toughest opponents. It's the most "natural", easiest self-interested view.

Larry Bird is a rare example of someone who doesn't do this.