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Does Duncan have a bigger defensive edge over Kareem or does Kareem have a bigger offensive edge over Duncan?

The defensive gap.

It depends largely upon which parts of their careers are being compared imo. If its 70-81 Kareem vs 98-09 Duncan then I think its offense. Beyond that it sways toward defense because of how much Kareem's defense fell off while Duncan retained most of his value on that end. At what point is hard to say but if you vote for Duncan overall then I would say you should have him ranked higher on your all time list.

For peaks, I'd say offense. For primes probably as well, but for careers it's closer. Kareem lost a lot of value on that end after 1983, although he was still MVP-level offensive player until 1987.

Overall, I think offense is still the bigger edge. That's why I rank Kareem higher than Duncan.

Draw

Kareem was an unstoppable force during his prime on offense.

Duncan was never a lock down defender, routinely was assigned the lesser big on defense and was freed up to cover defensively as a help defender. He never had a massive impact on any opposing big on defense that I could find.

Even with all of that. You would expect to see a significant impact on team defense based on Tim's presence. He joined a team that was 3rd defensively in the league the year before Robinson was out. SAS hung out in the 1-3 league DTRG rankings until 08-09 with Robinson and then Bowen being significant contributors on defense. Once Bowen's time dropped in 2009 they slid to 5thand then 8th, 11th, 10th until K Leonard became a starter and they jumped back into their 1-3 rankings for 4 years. Sure Duncan alone can't hold a team up on his shoulders defensively all by himself, but in 2017 without him SAS fell all the way to FIRST place defensively without him. They were first in 2016 as well even though he only played 1536 minutes.

Early in his career he was routinely putting in around 3200 minutes per season. Then in 2004 they reduced his minutes to around 2550. That's about 17 less games played at 39 MPG. Even with him missing that much time they continued to post league defensive rankings 1,1,1,2,3 then we hit Bowen leaving and drop to 5th.

SAS were a great defensive team that had a defensive culture before and after Duncan arrived.

I just don't see what measure anyone could hold up to suggest Duncan's defense was ATG compared to Kareem's offense. Duncan was absolutely a great defender, but he wasn't a stand out defender winning DPOY every year or in fact any year. (which is probably a crime in and of itself). The Tim love seems to do a lot of heavy lifting in discussions about him.

Lets not forget that Kareem was a fine defensive player in his own right

70sFan wrote:For peaks, I'd say offense. For primes probably as well, but for careers it's closer.

This is mostly where I land too. Though I think I'm probably a little more bullish on Duncan than you here? First half of the career I have as a clear edge to Kareem. 2nd half I would give to Duncan. I mean even his last season when he was physically limited he was still one of the better defenders in the league, and every year prior to that he was still an elite defender. Kareem stopped being that level of offensive player much sooner than Duncan stopped being that level of defensive player. For career I might side with Duncan?

Texas Chuck wrote:

70sFan wrote:For peaks, I'd say offense. For primes probably as well, but for careers it's closer.

This is mostly where I land too. Though I think I'm probably a little more bullish on Duncan than you here? First half of the career I have as a clear edge to Kareem. 2nd half I would give to Duncan. I mean even his last season when he was physically limited he was still one of the better defenders in the league, and every year prior to that he was still an elite defender. Kareem stopped being that level of offensive player much sooner than Duncan stopped being that level of defensive player. For career I might side with Duncan?

I'm not entirely sure about that, Kareem in 86 scored at a comparable rate/efficiency per 75 to 93 Olajuwon and 2002 Duncan. I would say he was an elite offensive player until 39 and considering the earlier era I would say his longevity in that regard is similar to Ducan. He was still routinely getting double teamed until year 18 or so.

For prime and career, the Kareem’s offensive edge. For peak, Duncan’s defense.

Frosty wrote:Kareem was an unstoppable force during his prime on offense.

Duncan was never a lock down defender, routinely was assigned the lesser big on defense and was freed up to cover defensively as a help defender. He never had a massive impact on any opposing big on defense that I could find.

Even with all of that. You would expect to see a significant impact on team defense based on Tim's presence. He joined a team that was 3rd defensively in the league the year before Robinson was out. SAS hung out in the 1-3 league DTRG rankings until 08-09 with Robinson and then Bowen being significant contributors on defense. Once Bowen's time dropped in 2009 they slid to 5thand then 8th, 11th, 10th until K Leonard became a starter and they jumped back into their 1-3 rankings for 4 years. Sure Duncan alone can't hold a team up on his shoulders defensively all by himself, but in 2017 without him SAS fell all the way to FIRST place defensively without him. They were first in 2016 as well even though he only played 1536 minutes.

Early in his career he was routinely putting in around 3200 minutes per season. Then in 2004 they reduced his minutes to around 2550. That's about 17 less games played at 39 MPG. Even with him missing that much time they continued to post league defensive rankings 1,1,1,2,3 then we hit Bowen leaving and drop to 5th.

SAS were a great defensive team that had a defensive culture before and after Duncan arrived.

I just don't see what measure anyone could hold up to suggest Duncan's defense was ATG compared to Kareem's offense. Duncan was absolutely a great defender, but he wasn't a stand out defender winning DPOY every year or in fact any year. (which is probably a crime in and of itself). The Tim love seems to do a lot of heavy lifting in discussions about him.

Lets not forget that Kareem was a fine defensive player in his own right

yeah, the falling off to 1st after duncan retired shows that no one was in a more career-long ideal situation than duncan. came in with a veteran team ready to win who had just added a GOAT coach, left with his best supporting cast, one that could win 67 games and have a 10+ net rating even with duncan playing 60 games and 25 mpg, and a team that could still win 61 and lead the league in defense after he left. i often wonder how much of the "longevity" argument for duncan is really just that he got the best supporting cast of his career at the end.

most guys are still trying to be the 20+ ppg scorers and/or defensive anchors they were as younger players while the supporting cast gradually falls off. we get to see them get older, less efficient, not be able to do it any more. we get to see them lose. duncan just got to skip that. it looked like he might experience that from 2008 to 2010, when the spurs were starting to look like a trio of aging hall of famers with a weaker supporting cast, which is why there were so many "are the spurs done?" conversations in those years. but then they added diaw and splitter and mills and green, and oh yeah, another hall of famer using a non-lottery pick. so now he could just show up on a random tuesday in january, put up 6 pts and 11 rebounds in 26 minutes, with 4 of those points coming off easy layups setup from parker/ginobili drives, while the spurs won by 20 and everyone would say how impactful he was. even though he was nowhere near the 25 ppg kind of guy he was at his peak who could carry everything. he could just play his ideal role with no pressure to step outside of it. take it easy on offense and focus on defense. could take off back to backs or nurse injuries for an extra game or two, instead of getting worn down like most greats. so his perfect situation just gets more perfect because he doesn't have to put up with the stuff that really tends to bring most great players down, which is never recovering from injuries and still having to have a huge role when you can't physically do it any more.

capfan33 wrote:

Texas Chuck wrote:

70sFan wrote:For peaks, I'd say offense. For primes probably as well, but for careers it's closer.

This is mostly where I land too. Though I think I'm probably a little more bullish on Duncan than you here? First half of the career I have as a clear edge to Kareem. 2nd half I would give to Duncan. I mean even his last season when he was physically limited he was still one of the better defenders in the league, and every year prior to that he was still an elite defender. Kareem stopped being that level of offensive player much sooner than Duncan stopped being that level of defensive player. For career I might side with Duncan?

I'm not entirely sure about that, Kareem in 86 scored at a comparable rate/efficiency per 75 to 93 Olajuwon and 2002 Duncan. I would say he was an elite offensive player until 39 and considering the earlier era I would say his longevity in that regard is similar to Ducan. He was still routinely getting double teamed until year 18 or so.

Oh Kareem was still a reliable scorer deep into his career. I just don't know that his overall offensive impact at that stage exceeded Duncan's defensive impact which was still approaching best defender in the league level--albeit in somewhat reduced minutes. Not trying to minimize KAJ here at all. Just as I'm very high on 20's Timmy defense, but have to say Kareem's offense edge was greater. That's no knock on Timmy either. These are two of the very best of all-time here.

Frosty wrote:Kareem was an unstoppable force during his prime on offense.

Duncan was never a lock down defender, routinely was assigned the lesser big on defense and was freed up to cover defensively as a help defender. He never had a massive impact on any opposing big on defense that I could find.

Even with all of that. You would expect to see a significant impact on team defense based on Tim's presence. He joined a team that was 3rd defensively in the league the year before Robinson was out. SAS hung out in the 1-3 league DTRG rankings until 08-09 with Robinson and then Bowen being significant contributors on defense. Once Bowen's time dropped in 2009 they slid to 5thand then 8th, 11th, 10th until K Leonard became a starter and they jumped back into their 1-3 rankings for 4 years. Sure Duncan alone can't hold a team up on his shoulders defensively all by himself, but in 2017 without him SAS fell all the way to FIRST place defensively without him. They were first in 2016 as well even though he only played 1536 minutes.

Early in his career he was routinely putting in around 3200 minutes per season. Then in 2004 they reduced his minutes to around 2550. That's about 17 less games played at 39 MPG. Even with him missing that much time they continued to post league defensive rankings 1,1,1,2,3 then we hit Bowen leaving and drop to 5th.

SAS were a great defensive team that had a defensive culture before and after Duncan arrived.

I just don't see what measure anyone could hold up to suggest Duncan's defense was ATG compared to Kareem's offense. Duncan was absolutely a great defender, but he wasn't a stand out defender winning DPOY every year or in fact any year. (which is probably a crime in and of itself). The Tim love seems to do a lot of heavy lifting in discussions about him.

Lets not forget that Kareem was a fine defensive player in his own right

I agree with all of this.

I also think KAJ's offense is better than Tim's defense.

What I would have posters think about is that Tim joined the Spurs in 1997 and then until 2009 they were at a 1-3 level defense. That is 13 years.

So you can attribute that to DRob and Bowen as teammates.

What I would challenge anyone is....where else can you find a player that was the primary defensive component for a team that was a top 1-3 ranked defensive team for 13 years straight.

You can talk about this player could have done it...that player could have done it...if this magic scenario of possibilities occurred then these players could have done it.

The bottom line is no one else HAS done it...what did Tim bring that allowed Bowen and Duncan to stay together for that length of time and maintain that level of defense. Whatever THAT is is what separates Tim from the rest......

G35 wrote:

Frosty wrote:Kareem was an unstoppable force during his prime on offense.

Duncan was never a lock down defender, routinely was assigned the lesser big on defense and was freed up to cover defensively as a help defender. He never had a massive impact on any opposing big on defense that I could find.

Even with all of that. You would expect to see a significant impact on team defense based on Tim's presence. He joined a team that was 3rd defensively in the league the year before Robinson was out. SAS hung out in the 1-3 league DTRG rankings until 08-09 with Robinson and then Bowen being significant contributors on defense. Once Bowen's time dropped in 2009 they slid to 5thand then 8th, 11th, 10th until K Leonard became a starter and they jumped back into their 1-3 rankings for 4 years. Sure Duncan alone can't hold a team up on his shoulders defensively all by himself, but in 2017 without him SAS fell all the way to FIRST place defensively without him. They were first in 2016 as well even though he only played 1536 minutes.

Early in his career he was routinely putting in around 3200 minutes per season. Then in 2004 they reduced his minutes to around 2550. That's about 17 less games played at 39 MPG. Even with him missing that much time they continued to post league defensive rankings 1,1,1,2,3 then we hit Bowen leaving and drop to 5th.

SAS were a great defensive team that had a defensive culture before and after Duncan arrived.

I just don't see what measure anyone could hold up to suggest Duncan's defense was ATG compared to Kareem's offense. Duncan was absolutely a great defender, but he wasn't a stand out defender winning DPOY every year or in fact any year. (which is probably a crime in and of itself). The Tim love seems to do a lot of heavy lifting in discussions about him.

Lets not forget that Kareem was a fine defensive player in his own right

I agree with all of this.

I also think KAJ's offense is better than Tim's defense.

What I would have posters think about is that Tim joined the Spurs in 1997 and then until 2009 they were at a 1-3 level defense. That is 13 years.

So you can attribute that to DRob and Bowen as teammates.

What I would challenge anyone is....where else can you find a player that was the primary defensive component for a team that was a top 1-3 ranked defensive team for 13 years straight.

You can talk about this player could have done it...that player could have done it...if this magic scenario of possibilities occurred then these players could have done it.

The bottom line is no one else HAS done it...what did Tim bring that allowed Bowen and Duncan to stay together for that length of time and maintain that level of defense. Whatever THAT is is what separates Tim from the rest......

11 years straight, not 13 but that is still a crazy run.

The 2 years before Duncan (skipping the one Robinson was out) and the 2 years after were still top defenses. 11 years straight is impressive but it wasn't like they needed Duncan to be a Top 3 defense. SAS's defense was predicated on keeping guys out of the middle, forcing them baseline which made it easier for them to defend and keeping shooters out of the corners. It wasn't built around Duncan, he was just a good fit. They were able to maintain that defense with other players when he wasn't there and when his minutes declined.

Saying, well the SAS streak is unique and the only guy there that entire period is Duncan, while being true, is a pretty big assertion if people want to use that as evidence his defense was so much better than Kareems. I'm sure Kareem would have loved a career where someone else took the toughest defensive assignment allowing him to be a help defender while being guarded by undersized power forwards on offense. (not saying you are doing it but you are tip toeing around it)

Defensive ranking
1995 5th No Duncan
1996 3rd No Duncan
1997 Robinson gets hurt and they draft Duncan
1998 2nd
1999 1st
2000 2nd
2001 1st
2002 2nd
2003 3rd
2004 1st
2005 1st
2006 1st
2007 2nd
2008 3rd
2009 5th Bowen's minutes decline
2010 8th No Bowen
2011 11th
2012 10th
2013 3rd Leonard becomes a starter
2014 3rd
2015 2nd
2016 1st Duncan played 1500 minutes that season
2017 1st No Duncan
2018 3rd No Duncan

Frosty wrote:

G35 wrote:

Frosty wrote:Kareem was an unstoppable force during his prime on offense.

Duncan was never a lock down defender, routinely was assigned the lesser big on defense and was freed up to cover defensively as a help defender. He never had a massive impact on any opposing big on defense that I could find.

Even with all of that. You would expect to see a significant impact on team defense based on Tim's presence. He joined a team that was 3rd defensively in the league the year before Robinson was out. SAS hung out in the 1-3 league DTRG rankings until 08-09 with Robinson and then Bowen being significant contributors on defense. Once Bowen's time dropped in 2009 they slid to 5thand then 8th, 11th, 10th until K Leonard became a starter and they jumped back into their 1-3 rankings for 4 years. Sure Duncan alone can't hold a team up on his shoulders defensively all by himself, but in 2017 without him SAS fell all the way to FIRST place defensively without him. They were first in 2016 as well even though he only played 1536 minutes.

Early in his career he was routinely putting in around 3200 minutes per season. Then in 2004 they reduced his minutes to around 2550. That's about 17 less games played at 39 MPG. Even with him missing that much time they continued to post league defensive rankings 1,1,1,2,3 then we hit Bowen leaving and drop to 5th.

SAS were a great defensive team that had a defensive culture before and after Duncan arrived.

I just don't see what measure anyone could hold up to suggest Duncan's defense was ATG compared to Kareem's offense. Duncan was absolutely a great defender, but he wasn't a stand out defender winning DPOY every year or in fact any year. (which is probably a crime in and of itself). The Tim love seems to do a lot of heavy lifting in discussions about him.

Lets not forget that Kareem was a fine defensive player in his own right

I agree with all of this.

I also think KAJ's offense is better than Tim's defense.

What I would have posters think about is that Tim joined the Spurs in 1997 and then until 2009 they were at a 1-3 level defense. That is 13 years.

So you can attribute that to DRob and Bowen as teammates.

What I would challenge anyone is....where else can you find a player that was the primary defensive component for a team that was a top 1-3 ranked defensive team for 13 years straight.

You can talk about this player could have done it...that player could have done it...if this magic scenario of possibilities occurred then these players could have done it.

The bottom line is no one else HAS done it...what did Tim bring that allowed Bowen and Duncan to stay together for that length of time and maintain that level of defense. Whatever THAT is is what separates Tim from the rest......

11 years straight, not 13 but that is still a crazy run.

The 2 years before Duncan (skipping the one Robinson was out) and the 2 years after were still top defenses. 11 years straight is impressive but it wasn't like they needed Duncan to be a Top 3 defense. SAS's defense was predicated on keeping guys out of the middle, forcing them baseline which made it easier for them to defend and keeping shooters out of the corners. It wasn't built around Duncan, he was just a good fit. They were able to maintain that defense with other players when he wasn't there and when his minutes declined.

Saying, well the SAS streak is unique and the only guy there that entire period is Duncan, while being true, is a pretty big assertion if people want to use that as evidence his defense was so much better than Kareems. I'm sure Kareem would have loved a career where someone else took the toughest defensive assignment allowing him to be a help defender while being guarded by undersized power forwards on offense. (not saying you are doing it but you are tip toeing around it)

Defensive ranking
1995 5th No Duncan
1996 3rd No Duncan
1997 Robinson gets hurt and they draft Duncan
1998 2nd
1999 1st
2000 2nd
2001 1st
2002 2nd
2003 3rd
2004 1st
2005 1st
2006 1st
2007 2nd
2008 3rd
2009 5th Bowen's minutes decline
2010 8th No Bowen
2011 11th
2012 10th
2013 3rd Leonard becomes a starter
2014 3rd
2015 2nd
2016 1st Duncan played 1500 minutes that season
2017 1st No Duncan
2018 3rd No Duncan

A lot of your argument is based on spurs being great defensively before/after duncan

The issue is that you are not accounting for post injury admiral not being peak admiral when duncan came in 98, let alone by 2002 or 2003

Nor are you accoubting for duncan not being peak duncan in 2016 when they were able to withstand his loss the next season

May as well diminish kareem offense cause the 90/91 lakers were awesome after he left using a similar line of reasoning

@Frosty, wonderfully put and I agree with these posts of yours fully. So many good points in them related to Duncan's defense, the Spurs having a great defensive team, and pertaining to this debate too.

It continually confounds me how much of Bowen's impact on defense (as well as the others who defended the perimeter for the Spurs) is freely gifted to Duncan by his fans here.

Frosty wrote:Kareem was an unstoppable force during his prime on offense.

Duncan was never a lock down defender, routinely was assigned the lesser big on defense and was freed up to cover defensively as a help defender. He never had a massive impact on any opposing big on defense that I could find.

Even with all of that. You would expect to see a significant impact on team defense based on Tim's presence. He joined a team that was 3rd defensively in the league the year before Robinson was out. SAS hung out in the 1-3 league DTRG rankings until 08-09 with Robinson and then Bowen being significant contributors on defense. Once Bowen's time dropped in 2009 they slid to 5thand then 8th, 11th, 10th until K Leonard became a starter and they jumped back into their 1-3 rankings for 4 years. Sure Duncan alone can't hold a team up on his shoulders defensively all by himself, but in 2017 without him SAS fell all the way to FIRST place defensively without him. They were first in 2016 as well even though he only played 1536 minutes.

Early in his career he was routinely putting in around 3200 minutes per season. Then in 2004 they reduced his minutes to around 2550. That's about 17 less games played at 39 MPG. Even with him missing that much time they continued to post league defensive rankings 1,1,1,2,3 then we hit Bowen leaving and drop to 5th.

SAS were a great defensive team that had a defensive culture before and after Duncan arrived.

I just don't see what measure anyone could hold up to suggest Duncan's defense was ATG compared to Kareem's offense. Duncan was absolutely a great defender, but he wasn't a stand out defender winning DPOY every year or in fact any year. (which is probably a crime in and of itself). The Tim love seems to do a lot of heavy lifting in discussions about him.

Lets not forget that Kareem was a fine defensive player in his own right

Frosty wrote:The 2 years before Duncan (skipping the one Robinson was out) and the 2 years after were still top defenses. 11 years straight is impressive but it wasn't like they needed Duncan to be a Top 3 defense. SAS's defense was predicated on keeping guys out of the middle, forcing them baseline which made it easier for them to defend and keeping shooters out of the corners. It wasn't built around Duncan, he was just a good fit. They were able to maintain that defense with other players when he wasn't there and when his minutes declined.

Saying, well the SAS streak is unique and the only guy there that entire period is Duncan, while being true, is a pretty big assertion if people want to use that as evidence his defense was so much better than Kareems. I'm sure Kareem would have loved a career where someone else took the toughest defensive assignment allowing him to be a help defender while being guarded by undersized power forwards on offense. (not saying you are doing it but you are tip toeing around it)

You know, I always thought Bowen was basically the defensive equivalent of Oscar Robertson and Magic Johnson.

This is a nice and meaningful timeline, Frosty.

To this info, I would add Boris Diaw, who joined the Spurs mid-way through the season in 2011-12. He was a smart defender at PF and when he played his first full season for them in 2012-13, he was also partly responsible for helping to push them up from #10 to #3 defense.

Frosty wrote:Defensive ranking
1995 5th No Duncan
1996 3rd No Duncan
1997 Robinson gets hurt and they draft Duncan
1998 2nd
1999 1st
2000 2nd
2001 1st
2002 2nd
2003 3rd
2004 1st
2005 1st
2006 1st
2007 2nd
2008 3rd
2009 5th Bowen's minutes decline
2010 8th No Bowen
2011 11th
2012 10th
2013 3rd Leonard becomes a starter
2014 3rd
2015 2nd
2016 1st Duncan played 1500 minutes that season
2017 1st No Duncan
2018 3rd No Duncan

Sorry, but nobody is buying the argument that Tim Duncan wasn't the foundation of the Spurs defense. Or to suggest Bruce Bowen was the key to it all.

Or to suggest that teams put their best big defender on the likes of old Robinson or Splitter or Rasho or Rose or any of the other bigs the Spurs paired with Duncan.

The lengths some of you will go to diminish players you don't like never ceases to astound me. I mean if we all want to write creative narratives we can, but we really shouldn't.

falcolombardi wrote:

Frosty wrote:

G35 wrote:

I agree with all of this.

I also think KAJ's offense is better than Tim's defense.

What I would have posters think about is that Tim joined the Spurs in 1997 and then until 2009 they were at a 1-3 level defense. That is 13 years.

So you can attribute that to DRob and Bowen as teammates.

What I would challenge anyone is....where else can you find a player that was the primary defensive component for a team that was a top 1-3 ranked defensive team for 13 years straight.

You can talk about this player could have done it...that player could have done it...if this magic scenario of possibilities occurred then these players could have done it.

The bottom line is no one else HAS done it...what did Tim bring that allowed Bowen and Duncan to stay together for that length of time and maintain that level of defense. Whatever THAT is is what separates Tim from the rest......

11 years straight, not 13 but that is still a crazy run.

The 2 years before Duncan (skipping the one Robinson was out) and the 2 years after were still top defenses. 11 years straight is impressive but it wasn't like they needed Duncan to be a Top 3 defense. SAS's defense was predicated on keeping guys out of the middle, forcing them baseline which made it easier for them to defend and keeping shooters out of the corners. It wasn't built around Duncan, he was just a good fit. They were able to maintain that defense with other players when he wasn't there and when his minutes declined.

Saying, well the SAS streak is unique and the only guy there that entire period is Duncan, while being true, is a pretty big assertion if people want to use that as evidence his defense was so much better than Kareems. I'm sure Kareem would have loved a career where someone else took the toughest defensive assignment allowing him to be a help defender while being guarded by undersized power forwards on offense. (not saying you are doing it but you are tip toeing around it)

Defensive ranking
1995 5th No Duncan
1996 3rd No Duncan
1997 Robinson gets hurt and they draft Duncan
1998 2nd
1999 1st
2000 2nd
2001 1st
2002 2nd
2003 3rd
2004 1st
2005 1st
2006 1st
2007 2nd
2008 3rd
2009 5th Bowen's minutes decline
2010 8th No Bowen
2011 11th
2012 10th
2013 3rd Leonard becomes a starter
2014 3rd
2015 2nd
2016 1st Duncan played 1500 minutes that season
2017 1st No Duncan
2018 3rd No Duncan

A lot of your argument is based on spurs being great defensively before/after duncan

The issue is that you are not accounting for post injury admiral not being peak admiral when duncan came in 98, let alone by 2002 or 2003

Nor are you accoubting for duncan not being peak duncan in 2016 when they were able to withstand his loss the next season

May as well diminish kareem offense cause the 90/91 lakers were awesome after he left using a similar line of reasoning

Well I'm saying that if you are going to stand up an argument that Duncan's defense is so much better than Kareem's (very good) defense, then you have to go to a team defense argument. You can't make it a man to man defense argument because Duncan routinely switched off of the best big, regardless as to whether it was his natural assignment.

Once you go to that, you should be able to see clear declines in the SAS defense whenever Duncan's minutes or appearances declined. You don't. He really didn't have an outsized impact on their defense or you would have seen a complete collapse after he left. Without this it's just a blanket argument of well Tim was extremely great of defense but you SAS could maintain their top defensive spot in the league by replacing him with an old version of Pau. It just doesn't pass the sniff test.

I'm not arguing a Kareem argument based on team offense. The Lakers always had guys that could score, often scoring less than they could have because of their rich talent base. So I don't need to defend Kareem from a similar argument. He was one of the best scorers in history.

To take a really anecdotal example, he missed the playoffs in 2000 and in their only series, their defense was great. Unfortunately their offense wasn't

Texas Chuck wrote:Sorry, but nobody is buying the argument that Tim Duncan wasn't the foundation of the Spurs defense. Or to suggest Bruce Bowen was the key to it all.

Absolutely nobody has said this. You do this quite often IMO, i.e., try to make it sound like people are making outlandish statements against your Tim Duncan because of bias so that their arguments will be glossed over, thus preserving his "Top 5" status to you instead of being debated.

The only things that have been said so far are...

@Frosty made some excellent points about:

1) The Spurs being a great defensive team that had a defensive culture before and after Duncan arrived. He also provided a nice timeline which clearly shows they were 3rd before he joined and 1st after he retired.

2) The Spur defensive ratings started dropping once Bowen's minutes started dropping, which is a fact. So while he was not the "key to it all", he was certainly integral to their defense... and some of his defensive impact is likely being gifted to Duncan.

3) Frosty also made another accurate statement... i.e, "Duncan was never a lock down defender, routinely was assigned the lesser big on defense and was freed up to cover defensively as a help defender. He never had a massive impact on any opposing big on defense that I could find."

@F4P made some excellent points too:

1) How much of the "longevity" argument for Duncan is really just that he got the best supporting cast of his career at the end?

2) The Spurs mostly always had deep and quality rosters around Duncan from 2002-03 onward. His perfect situation at the Spurs (with Parker and Ginobili) just got more perfect as time passed by and they replaced role players like Bowen, Finley, Barry, etc with Kawhi, Diaw, Danny Green, etc. He could take it easy on offense and focus on defense, could take off back to backs or nurse injuries for an extra game or two, instead of getting worn down like most greats... because he doesn't have to put up with the stuff that really tends to bring most great players down, which is never recovering from injuries and still having to have a huge role when you can't physically do it any more.

Anyway, I've listed 5 bullet points that they mentioned above. Would you like to address those?