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Before 2017 he wasn't a big box score player at all but rewatching even the 2013 finals he stands out on the court in a way role players don't.

DPM rates his 2014 season roughly equivalent to 2013 Steph Curry for example. Under a larger role I really wonder if he could've been making all-nba teams by then. 2015 and 2016 are seen as the years he really took the jump but even they are probably underrated.

His biggest knock is longevity/health and that's completely valid, but if you give him full credit for 2017 and 2021 is he really that far off from his peers at the same age? Postseason RAPM basically has him over every other perimeter superstar besides LeBron.

I agree with the observation that his RS impact has kinda plateaued since 2016 but he coasts to preserve his body and he's one of the biggest playoff risers ever like late career LeBron.

Kawhi has 22480 career minutes through his age 30 season.

Kevin Durant had 36K Minutes.
LeBron had 43K Minutes.

Who else should we be comparing him to? Jimmy Butler?

LeBron played more minutes in the shortened 2012 season on his way to his first title than Kawhi did in a full, 82-game schedule in 2019.

Even the Injury Riddled Dwyane Wade had > 26K minutes through his age 30 season.

1. He's been in the NBA 11 years. And has had two wasted season for injuries. He's had another 2 seasons were his body gave out in the post-season. So he's only made it through the post-season 7 of 11 years.
2. He requires significant load management in his twenties.

To give you context, Manu, another SA great who had durability concerns entered the NBA at 25. From 25 to 30 he played 12,056 minutes. Kawhi mustered 8,345 minutes from 25 to 30.

That matteres when you're evaluating players. 18 of the 23 title winners this century were top 2 seeds. 17 of the finals losers were top 2 seeds. If Kawhi is your franchise player you're going to have a hard time getting the top seeds title winners typically get and you have a hard time relying on him to make it through the post-season.

And as to his coasting in the RS, that works if you play on great teams as he has throughout his career. For the typical team they can't get by if their best player treats it as a joke

sp6r=underrated wrote:1. He's been in the NBA 11 years. And has had two wasted season for injuries. He's had another 2 seasons were his body gave out in the post-season. So he's only made it through the post-season 7 of 11 years.
2. He requires significant load management in his twenties.

To give you context, Manu, another SA great who had durability concerns entered the NBA at 25. From 25 to 30 he played 12,056 minutes. Kawhi mustered 8,345 minutes from 25 to 30.

That matteres when you're evaluating players. 18 of the 23 title winners this century were top 2 seeds. 17 of the finals losers were top 2 seeds. If Kawhi is your franchise player you're going to have a hard time getting the top seeds title winners typically get and you have a hard time relying on him to make it through the post-season.

And as to his coasting in the RS, that works if you play on great teams as he has throughout his career. For the typical team they can't get by if their best player treats it as a joke

I don't disagree with most of what your saying, but isn't it kinda strange to say this about a guy who's won it all (at least once, arguably twice) as a franchise player?

parsnips33 wrote:

sp6r=underrated wrote:1. He's been in the NBA 11 years. And has had two wasted season for injuries. He's had another 2 seasons were his body gave out in the post-season. So he's only made it through the post-season 7 of 11 years.
2. He requires significant load management in his twenties.

To give you context, Manu, another SA great who had durability concerns entered the NBA at 25. From 25 to 30 he played 12,056 minutes. Kawhi mustered 8,345 minutes from 25 to 30.

That matteres when you're evaluating players. 18 of the 23 title winners this century were top 2 seeds. 17 of the finals losers were top 2 seeds. If Kawhi is your franchise player you're going to have a hard time getting the top seeds title winners typically get and you have a hard time relying on him to make it through the post-season.

And as to his coasting in the RS, that works if you play on great teams as he has throughout his career. For the typical team they can't get by if their best player treats it as a joke

I don't disagree with most of what your saying, but isn't it kinda strange to say this about a guy who's won it all (at least once, arguably twice) as a franchise player?

My underlined sentence covers it. He's played on great teams his entire career. You can make a case no one in NBA history has had it better than him.

The 2020 Raptors went 53-19, ECSF G7 loss down by 2 with a minute to go. That is a great team. The year before he arrived they went 59-23. Admittedly got crushed by Cleveland but this is a lot better than the average superstar gets. Even the blessed superstars like Magic or Duncan didn't have it quite that good. The 2018 Spurs won 47 games.

On teams like San Antonio or Toronto you can your best player dog it and still compete for a title. I'm not sure most title winning clubs can. And I've never bought the contention of some, not saying you, that I shouldn't care at all what a player does for the average team

I'm biased, but I'll just say that it's probably relatively easy to 'raise your game' when you have half as much wear-and-tear/twice as much rest as the guys you're playing against.

He could have had a case for best active player in the league and better resume than Lebron had he remained in Toronto another year and defeated Bron’s Lakers in the bubble championship.

The Duke wrote:He could have had a case for best active player in the league and better resume than Lebron had he remained in Toronto another year and defeated Bron’s Lakers in the bubble championship.

Best active player? Sure, maybe

Better resume? Doubtful

I feel like a lot of people don’t really appreciate how great he’s been in the playoffs. I mean who in the past decade has been clearly better than healthy Kawhi aside from Lebron?

parsnips33 wrote:

sp6r=underrated wrote:That matteres when you're evaluating players. 18 of the 23 title winners this century were top 2 seeds. 17 of the finals losers were top 2 seeds. If Kawhi is your franchise player you're going to have a hard time getting the top seeds title winners typically get and you have a hard time relying on him to make it through the post-season.

I don't disagree with most of what your saying, but isn't it kinda strange to say this about a guy who's won it all (at least once, arguably twice) as a franchise player?

I don't think he ever was a franchise player. He was a key piece for sure, but both the Spurs and the Raptors were already well oiled machines.

sp6r=underrated wrote:

parsnips33 wrote:

sp6r=underrated wrote:1. He's been in the NBA 11 years. And has had two wasted season for injuries. He's had another 2 seasons were his body gave out in the post-season. So he's only made it through the post-season 7 of 11 years.
2. He requires significant load management in his twenties.

To give you context, Manu, another SA great who had durability concerns entered the NBA at 25. From 25 to 30 he played 12,056 minutes. Kawhi mustered 8,345 minutes from 25 to 30.

That matteres when you're evaluating players. 18 of the 23 title winners this century were top 2 seeds. 17 of the finals losers were top 2 seeds. If Kawhi is your franchise player you're going to have a hard time getting the top seeds title winners typically get and you have a hard time relying on him to make it through the post-season.

And as to his coasting in the RS, that works if you play on great teams as he has throughout his career. For the typical team they can't get by if their best player treats it as a joke

I don't disagree with most of what your saying, but isn't it kinda strange to say this about a guy who's won it all (at least once, arguably twice) as a franchise player?

My underlined sentence covers it. He's played on great teams his entire career. You can make a case no one in NBA history has had it better than him.

The 2020 Raptors went 53-19, ECSF G7 loss down by 2 with a minute to go. That is a great team. The year before he arrived they went 59-23. Admittedly got crushed by Cleveland but this is a lot better than the average superstar gets. Even the blessed superstars like Magic or Duncan didn't have it quite that good. The 2018 Spurs won 47 games.

On teams like San Antonio or Toronto you can your best player dog it and still compete for a title. I'm not sure most title winning clubs can. And I've never bought the contention of some, not saying you, that I shouldn't care at all what a player does for the average team

Fair enough, although I'm not convinced the SA and TOR supporting casts were that much better than your average title contenders'

I do think Kawhi has been blessed with great coaches (and Doc Rivers ) for most of his career

No-more-rings wrote:I feel like a lot of people don’t really appreciate how great he’s been in the playoffs. I mean who in the past decade has been clearly better than healthy Kawhi aside from Lebron?

I agree though the way 2017 ended and all the missed games since then(and some would say personality/leadership issues) have really taken their toll on his rep imo.

parsnips33 wrote:
Fair enough, although I'm not convinced the SA and TOR supporting casts were that much better than your average title contenders'

I do think Kawhi has been blessed with great coaches (and Doc Rivers ) for most of his career

Toronto was really tailor made for him to succeed though. 3rd in srs and in Net rating even with him missing 22 games. Then overall defensively very strong. Sometimes the fit matters more than how they look on paper.

Cavsfansince84 wrote:

parsnips33 wrote:
Fair enough, although I'm not convinced the SA and TOR supporting casts were that much better than your average title contenders'

I do think Kawhi has been blessed with great coaches (and Doc Rivers ) for most of his career

Toronto was really tailor made for him to succeed though. 3rd in srs and in Net rating even with him missing 22 games. Then overall defensively very strong. Sometimes the fit matters more than how they look on paper.

I wonder who would be the worst star that could've lead that team to a title. Paul George? Jimmy Butler?

He was the elite scorer that they needed in the postseason but I do wonder if you could trade some of his scoring for more playmaking could they've gotten the same results.

Cavsfansince84 wrote:

No-more-rings wrote:I feel like a lot of people don’t really appreciate how great he’s been in the playoffs. I mean who in the past decade has been clearly better than healthy Kawhi aside from Lebron?

I agree though the way 2017 ended and all the missed games since then(and some would say personality/leadership issues) have really taken their toll on his rep imo.

Fair, but that’s why I said healthy Kawhi.

No-more-rings wrote:

Cavsfansince84 wrote:

No-more-rings wrote:I feel like a lot of people don’t really appreciate how great he’s been in the playoffs. I mean who in the past decade has been clearly better than healthy Kawhi aside from Lebron?

I agree though the way 2017 ended and all the missed games since then(and some would say personality/leadership issues) have really taken their toll on his rep imo.

Fair, but that’s why I said healthy Kawhi.

Ya I'd say when healthy he's been the second best playoff performer to LeBron going back to like 2010. Steph probably #3 after his last playoffs.

Some of what Kawhi may have become will forever come down to the Pachulia ankle shot. I would've been fascinated to see what the Spurs could've done the rest of those playoffs.

People underrate him as a talent for sure, he was a genuine DPOY level perimeter defender in 2016 and if he’s healthy we probably see his peak offense and near peak defense come together

He’s definately underrated offensively, he’s fully been incredible offensively 3/4 of his last playoff runs when he played he just got hurt in two of them

If Kawhi never got hurt you could probably make a pretty strong argument he’s on the bron Curry tier 2015-2022 (if he wins in 2021)

MyUniBroDavis wrote:People underrate him as a talent for sure, he was a genuine DPOY level perimeter defender in 2016 and if he’s healthy we probably see his peak offense and near peak defense come together

He’s definately underrated offensively, he’s fully been incredible offensively 3/4 of his last playoff runs when he played he just got hurt in two of them

If Kawhi never got hurt you could probably make a pretty strong argument he’s on the bron Curry tier 2015-2022 (if he wins in 2021)

I really hope we get to see a bit more prime kawhi while we still can

Meh if anything it's overvalued NOW. He was looking like he was headed towards top 10 GOAT status coming off a title and bolting to a team most pundits had as the prohibitive title favorites.

Fast forward to today and injuries have derailed the train. He needs to come back with a dominant season/post season here on outwards.