If Kobe replaced West on his teams from 1960 to 1974 how many rings does he win.

[coastalmarker99]

I say personally that Kobe wins 2 rings with West's teams from 1961 to 1974.

1960 -1961 Lakers with 1996-1997 Kobe they most likely miss the playoffs altogether.

1961-1962 Lakers with 1997-1998 Kobe they most likely lose in the first round.

1962-1963 Lakers with 1998-1999 Kobe they most likely lose in the first round.

1963-1964 Lakers with 1999-2000 Kobe they most likely lose in the first round.

1964-1965 Lakers with 2000-2001 Kobe they most likely lose in the first round.

1965-1966 Lakers with 2001-2002 Kobe they lose to Boston in the finals.

1966-1967 Lakers with 2002-2003 Kobe they lose to the 76ers in the finals.

1967-1968 Lakers with 2003-2004 Kobe they lose to Boston in the finals.

1968-1969 Lakers with 2004-2005 Kobe they lose to Boston in the finals.

1969-1970 Lakers with 2005-2006 Kobe they lose to New York in 7 games in the finals

1970-1971 Lakers with 2006-2007 Kobe they lose in the WCF to the Bucks in six or seven games.

1971-1972 Lakers with 2007-2008 Kobe they win the title as they did in real life.

1972-1973 Lakers with 2008-2009 Kobe they end up winning over 65 games and then repeating over New york in the finals.

1973-1974 lakers with 2009-2010 Kobe they lose to the Bucks

[LAL1947]

First, Jerry and even Oscar entered the league at 22yo... so I don't think it's fair to compare with an 18yo Kobe.

Second, if I say Kobe would win more than 2, that would be disrespectful to Jerry West and the era of the pioneers who had to make things up as they went along. The generations that came after West's era all learned and improved from watching them. Yet, if I say Kobe only wins 2 (or the same as Jerry), that would be completely dishonest of me and the Timmy and Lebron fans would love to see something like that being said too.

So I'm going to approach this question from an unusual perspective... and kill 3 birds with 1 stone.

Does Elgin Baylor continue to play like a shot-jacking twat even after he has a black leader of the team in 22yo Kobe... or does he finally defer to the better player and start playing for the team to win? That's the most important part of this equation! If it's the former, then 2 titles or the same as West sounds right. If it's the latter, who really knows? Kobe's 1960-74 Lakers could have taken away more than a few of Bill Russell's 11 titles on top of winning Jerry's 1 title... and the ring count might end up with Kobe 6-8 vs Russell 4-6.

[wojoaderge]

Not much different

[falcolombardi]

I think kobe biggest advantage may actually be that he would be probably healthier in more playoff runs

If you increase the amount of tries, one of those years may be a un upset win over boston (or bucks in 71 when west was hurt)

[An Unbiased Fan]

Kobe was much more explosive, better in the post, and more explosive at the rim, along with a great mid-range. I bring these up in the context of that era and the type of players who would have to try and defend him.

61 Lakers / 00 Kobe - Lose in Finals to Celtics
62 Lakers / 01 Kobe - Lakers beat Celtics in finals
63 Lakers / 02 Kobe - Lakers beat Celtics in finals
64 Lakers / 03 Kobe - Lose in Finals to Celtics
65 Lakers / 04 Kobe - Lose in Finals to Celtics
66 Lakers / 05 Kobe - Lose to Hawks in WCF
67 Lakers / 06 Kobe - Lose to 76ers in Finals
68 Lakers / 07 Kobe - Lakers beat Celtics in Finals
69 Lakers / 08 Kobe - Lakers beat Celtics in Finals
70 Lakers / 09 Kobe - Lakers beat Knicks in Finals
71 Lakers / 10 Kobe - Lakers beat Bucks in Finals
72 Lakers / 11 Kobe - Lakers beat Knicks in Finals
73 Lakers / 12 Kobe - Lakers beat Knicks in Finals
74 Lakers / 13 Kobe - Lakers lose to Bucks in 1st round

Lakers go back to back early in the 60s before Hondo is going. And become dominant once Wilt comes over creating the GOAT big 3 in NBA history.

[70sFan]

Kobe was much more explosive, better in the post, and more explosive at the rim, along with a great mid-range. I bring these up in the context of that era and the type of players who would have to try and defend him.

61 Lakers / 00 Kobe - Lose in Finals to Celtics
62 Lakers / 01 Kobe - Lakers beat Celtics in finals
63 Lakers / 02 Kobe - Lakers beat Celtics in finals
64 Lakers / 03 Kobe - Lose in Finals to Celtics
65 Lakers / 04 Kobe - Lose in Finals to Celtics
66 Lakers / 05 Kobe - Lose to Hawks in WCF
67 Lakers / 06 Kobe - Lose to 76ers in Finals
68 Lakers / 07 Kobe - Lakers beat Celtics in Finals
69 Lakers / 08 Kobe - Lakers beat Celtics in Finals
70 Lakers / 09 Kobe - Lakers beat Knicks in Finals
71 Lakers / 10 Kobe - Lakers beat Bucks in Finals
72 Lakers / 11 Kobe - Lakers beat Knicks in Finals
73 Lakers / 12 Kobe - Lakers beat Knicks in Finals
74 Lakers / 13 Kobe - Lakers lose to Bucks in 1st round

Lakers go back to back early in the 60s before Hondo is going. And become dominant once Wilt comes over creating the GOAT big 3 in NBA history.

2013 Kobe with 1974 Lakers roster winning the champion in the finals against a team that played in the same conference - I have seen it all...

[Stan]

Kobe was much more explosive, better in the post, and more explosive at the rim, along with a great mid-range. I bring these up in the context of that era and the type of players who would have to try and defend him.

61 Lakers / 00 Kobe - Lose in Finals to Celtics
62 Lakers / 01 Kobe - Lakers beat Celtics in finals
63 Lakers / 02 Kobe - Lakers beat Celtics in finals
64 Lakers / 03 Kobe - Lose in Finals to Celtics
65 Lakers / 04 Kobe - Lose in Finals to Celtics
66 Lakers / 05 Kobe - Lose to Hawks in WCF
67 Lakers / 06 Kobe - Lose to 76ers in Finals
68 Lakers / 07 Kobe - Lakers beat Celtics in Finals
69 Lakers / 08 Kobe - Lakers beat Celtics in Finals
70 Lakers / 09 Kobe - Lakers beat Knicks in Finals
71 Lakers / 10 Kobe - Lakers beat Bucks in Finals
72 Lakers / 11 Kobe - Lakers beat Knicks in Finals
73 Lakers / 12 Kobe - Lakers beat Knicks in Finals
74 Lakers / 13 Kobe - Lakers lose to Bucks in 1st round

Lakers go back to back early in the 60s before Hondo is going. And become dominant once Wilt comes over creating the GOAT big 3 in NBA history.

Seriously, 8 titles? And you want to claim you’re an unbiased fan lol.

Kobe is in no way, shape or form worth 7 more titles than West. This is a guy who was routinely mediocre in the Finals, and you think he’s wining 7 more titles than a guy who was often brilliant in them?

[Stalwart]

Kobe was much more explosive, better in the post, and more explosive at the rim, along with a great mid-range. I bring these up in the context of that era and the type of players who would have to try and defend him.

61 Lakers / 00 Kobe - Lose in Finals to Celtics
62 Lakers / 01 Kobe - Lakers beat Celtics in finals
63 Lakers / 02 Kobe - Lakers beat Celtics in finals
64 Lakers / 03 Kobe - Lose in Finals to Celtics
65 Lakers / 04 Kobe - Lose in Finals to Celtics
66 Lakers / 05 Kobe - Lose to Hawks in WCF
67 Lakers / 06 Kobe - Lose to 76ers in Finals
68 Lakers / 07 Kobe - Lakers beat Celtics in Finals
69 Lakers / 08 Kobe - Lakers beat Celtics in Finals
70 Lakers / 09 Kobe - Lakers beat Knicks in Finals
71 Lakers / 10 Kobe - Lakers beat Bucks in Finals
72 Lakers / 11 Kobe - Lakers beat Knicks in Finals
73 Lakers / 12 Kobe - Lakers beat Knicks in Finals
74 Lakers / 13 Kobe - Lakers lose to Bucks in 1st round

Lakers go back to back early in the 60s before Hondo is going. And become dominant once Wilt comes over creating the GOAT big 3 in NBA history.

Seriously, 8 titles? And you want to claim you’re an unbiased fan lol.

Kobe is in no way, shape or form worth 7 more titles than West. This is a guy who was routinely mediocre in the Finals, and you think he’s wining 7 more titles than a guy who was often brilliant in them?

Well, in real life Kobe was worth 4 more titles than Jerry West. And he did that in a bigger, tougher, non-denominational, and modern league. Is 3 more titles that far fetched when his teammates are Elgin Baylor, Wilt Chamberlain, and Gail Goodrich? And the league has 8 teams instead of 32? And he's playing 3 rounds instead of 4?

[tsherkin]

And he did that in a bigger, tougher, non-denominational, and modern league. Is 3 more titles that far fetched when his teammates are Elgin Baylor, Wilt Chamberlain, and Gail Goodrich? And the league has 8 teams instead of 32? And he's playing 3 rounds instead of 4?

Okay, but now take away the 3pt shot, diminish his FTr a little for when the refs don't respect his rip-throughs, boost his turnover rate a little for calls he runs into from palming. The modernity you're trumpeting actually doesn't work in Kobe's favor here. He would obviously still be quite good, but you're missing some context in this.

[Mazter]

Well, in real life Kobe was worth 4 more titles than Jerry West. And he did that in a bigger, tougher, non-denominational, and modern league. Is 3 more titles that far fetched when his teammates are Elgin Baylor, Wilt Chamberlain, and Gail Goodrich? And the league has 8 teams instead of 32? And he's playing 3 rounds instead of 4?

Well, since you have it that way, in real life Kobe didn't win anything without Phil and the triangle. And there is no Phil and triangle on the 60's Lakers. Kobe is not beating the Celtics, they were just to well organised. He might win one with Wilt though.

[An Unbiased Fan]

Kobe was much more explosive, better in the post, and more explosive at the rim, along with a great mid-range. I bring these up in the context of that era and the type of players who would have to try and defend him.

61 Lakers / 00 Kobe - Lose in Finals to Celtics
62 Lakers / 01 Kobe - Lakers beat Celtics in finals
63 Lakers / 02 Kobe - Lakers beat Celtics in finals
64 Lakers / 03 Kobe - Lose in Finals to Celtics
65 Lakers / 04 Kobe - Lose in Finals to Celtics
66 Lakers / 05 Kobe - Lose to Hawks in WCF
67 Lakers / 06 Kobe - Lose to 76ers in Finals
68 Lakers / 07 Kobe - Lakers beat Celtics in Finals
69 Lakers / 08 Kobe - Lakers beat Celtics in Finals
70 Lakers / 09 Kobe - Lakers beat Knicks in Finals
71 Lakers / 10 Kobe - Lakers beat Bucks in Finals
72 Lakers / 11 Kobe - Lakers beat Knicks in Finals
73 Lakers / 12 Kobe - Lakers beat Knicks in Finals
74 Lakers / 13 Kobe - Lakers lose to Bucks in 1st round

Lakers go back to back early in the 60s before Hondo is going. And become dominant once Wilt comes over creating the GOAT big 3 in NBA history.

2013 Kobe with 1974 Lakers roster winning the champion in the finals against a team that played in the same conference - I have seen it all...

Huh?? I literally have 2013 Kobe on the 74 team losing in the 1st round. He got hurt right before the playoffs

[An Unbiased Fan]

Kobe was much more explosive, better in the post, and more explosive at the rim, along with a great mid-range. I bring these up in the context of that era and the type of players who would have to try and defend him.

61 Lakers / 00 Kobe - Lose in Finals to Celtics
62 Lakers / 01 Kobe - Lakers beat Celtics in finals
63 Lakers / 02 Kobe - Lakers beat Celtics in finals
64 Lakers / 03 Kobe - Lose in Finals to Celtics
65 Lakers / 04 Kobe - Lose in Finals to Celtics
66 Lakers / 05 Kobe - Lose to Hawks in WCF
67 Lakers / 06 Kobe - Lose to 76ers in Finals
68 Lakers / 07 Kobe - Lakers beat Celtics in Finals
69 Lakers / 08 Kobe - Lakers beat Celtics in Finals
70 Lakers / 09 Kobe - Lakers beat Knicks in Finals
71 Lakers / 10 Kobe - Lakers beat Bucks in Finals
72 Lakers / 11 Kobe - Lakers beat Knicks in Finals
73 Lakers / 12 Kobe - Lakers beat Knicks in Finals
74 Lakers / 13 Kobe - Lakers lose to Bucks in 1st round

Lakers go back to back early in the 60s before Hondo is going. And become dominant once Wilt comes over creating the GOAT big 3 in NBA history.

Seriously, 8 titles? And you want to claim you’re an unbiased fan lol.

Kobe is in no way, shape or form worth 7 more titles than West. This is a guy who was routinely mediocre in the Finals, and you think he’s wining 7 more titles than a guy who was often brilliant in them?

Kobe had 5 rings, and got them in a NBA with more than 8 teams. Tell me which years are wrong?

Prime Kobe won three straight with Shaq, and back to back with Pau. Once Wilt comes to LA in 69 with that defensive focus, who is beating LA's big 3 of Kobe, Wilt, Elgin??? What guards are they throwing at Kobe to even try to defend while Wilt is down below?

Yes, put Kobe on those Laker teams and he feasts. Keep in mind how many times West made the Finals.

[AEnigma]

I think eight rings might be generous but it is not wholly unreasonable starting from the approach that Kobe was just better than West but stood out less numerically because of era relative differences.

To the question asked, I would feel confident Kobe still wins the 1972 title West did win, and has a fair shot at more than that, without really being able to extrapolate what type of production we could see from 1960s Kobe. In the inverse, I struggle more to give West titles in 2009 and 2010 in Kobe’s place.

[MyUniBroDavis]

And he did that in a bigger, tougher, non-denominational, and modern league. Is 3 more titles that far fetched when his teammates are Elgin Baylor, Wilt Chamberlain, and Gail Goodrich? And the league has 8 teams instead of 32? And he's playing 3 rounds instead of 4?

Okay, but now take away the 3pt shot, diminish his FTr a little for when the refs don't respect his rip-throughs, boost his turnover rate a little for calls he runs into from palming. The modernity you're trumpeting actually doesn't work in Kobe's favor here. He would obviously still be quite good, but you're missing some context in this.

I’m confused here, are talking about Kobe born in west time or him time travelled to west’s time?

[tsherkin]

I’m confused here, are talking about Kobe born in west time or him time travelled to west’s time?

An excellent question.

But Kobe born back then would look different than he does now, and Kobe now ported back then would also have issues to deal with, so either way...

[MyUniBroDavis]

Kobe was much more explosive, better in the post, and more explosive at the rim, along with a great mid-range. I bring these up in the context of that era and the type of players who would have to try and defend him.

61 Lakers / 00 Kobe - Lose in Finals to Celtics
62 Lakers / 01 Kobe - Lakers beat Celtics in finals
63 Lakers / 02 Kobe - Lakers beat Celtics in finals
64 Lakers / 03 Kobe - Lose in Finals to Celtics
65 Lakers / 04 Kobe - Lose in Finals to Celtics
66 Lakers / 05 Kobe - Lose to Hawks in WCF
67 Lakers / 06 Kobe - Lose to 76ers in Finals
68 Lakers / 07 Kobe - Lakers beat Celtics in Finals
69 Lakers / 08 Kobe - Lakers beat Celtics in Finals
70 Lakers / 09 Kobe - Lakers beat Knicks in Finals
71 Lakers / 10 Kobe - Lakers beat Bucks in Finals
72 Lakers / 11 Kobe - Lakers beat Knicks in Finals
73 Lakers / 12 Kobe - Lakers beat Knicks in Finals
74 Lakers / 13 Kobe - Lakers lose to Bucks in 1st round

Lakers go back to back early in the 60s before Hondo is going. And become dominant once Wilt comes over creating the GOAT big 3 in NBA history.

I don’t think it’s Kobe teleported back then vs if he was born at the time right? (Without the more obvious social complications of doing so)

In that regard him winning 7 seems kind of absurd lol

[Franco]

Kobe was much more explosive, better in the post, and more explosive at the rim, along with a great mid-range. I bring these up in the context of that era and the type of players who would have to try and defend him.

71 Lakers / 10 Kobe - Lakers beat Bucks in Finals.

Prime Kobe was so great he's going to warp reality itself and relocate the Bucks to a different conference in 1971, just so he can beat them in the Finals

[MyUniBroDavis]

I’m confused here, are talking about Kobe born in west time or him time travelled to west’s time?

An excellent question.

But Kobe born back then would look different than he does now, and Kobe now ported back then would also have issues to deal with, so either way...

I don’t necessarily think Kobe born back then has the same level of success as west, although at the same time I do think he hit that upper limit of ability and impact offensively of an iso scoring guard in his era without transcendent physical abilities, so much of his development is based on emulating Jordan, I do think in areas like footwork he ended up becoming him (like as in him not Jordan lol) as a perimeter dude and it’s not as if he’s strictly a thrift shop version or him offensively, but I don’t see him developing the same way without emulating him growing up. Not just that too but I always felt he was obsessive over film and emulating greats, there weren’t that many people he would emulate if he was born in the 40s, and developed as a player pre pro in the 50s, west was ridiculously ahead of his time watching it

Otoh I don’t think that having an opinion like Stalwart or Unbiased fan who seem to be talking about it in an absolute sense is inconsistent with thinking west sees more success if they’re born at that time in the 60s

Kobe especially is someone that probably translates well to earlier eras, in the sense that you could make the argument all things considered he’s been the best 1v1 perimeter scorer in the 21st century, that relied more than his peers on his post game, which through his prime (06-09 imo) does show up as absolutely ridiculous for a perimeter player

At the end of the day it’ll come down to how you view 60s perimeter basketball players vs todays perimeter players, and how the rule differences would effect players going backward vs forward

I’ll fully admit I’m probably way more on the extreme in terms of modern>past in an absolute sense, and that’s obv what I support when the topic gets brought up, but it’s all hypothetical at the end of the day

Kobe is someone that theoretically has a skillset that fits more backwards than forwards tho, or I should say how he played?

I think he showed he could be elite in an offense with more pick and roll offense while still utilizing his ISO ability in 2013, and him in a modern mismatch spaced out one would be incredible I feel, so this isn’t to say he wouldn’t have success now vs his era

But I do think that a transcendent 1 on 1 player (in the post especially, he’s transcendent both in terms of volume as a perimeter guy, but especially in terms of effeciency), that’s versatile offensively off ball and particularly good in terms of moving and cutting to create space for teammates and draw the defense and all that, and a pretty great playmaker as well, translates better to previous eras. If I’m remembering correctly pretty much all of the perimeter high impact offensive guys other than him were running more pick and roll right? Nash/Wade/bron, and if we’re talking offensive impact I don’t think Kobe was tiers below, there’s definately something with his RAPM in regards to radmonovic and Odom separately having inconsistently high offensive ratings in his peak years, which seems more of a noise related issue by looking at the data and context in surrounding seasons vs something noteworthy offensively

But I do think back on topic it depends on how you view them as players in an absolute sense if you want to teleport one back or one forward, and to be perfectly honest while I do think west born for this era or Kobe’s era would be great, I don’t think they’re particularly close in either set of rules

Perimeter play is where I think skills have progressed more, even under rules where aspects of that like ball handling and distance shooting is suppressed, I just think 40-50 years of development + a larger talent pool (I feel this gets glossed over a bit, but it’ll be based on how many people want to join the nba growing up in the 50s vs growing up in the 90s, and for various reasons you would expect the 90s to be far higher)

[capfan33]

Kobe was much more explosive, better in the post, and more explosive at the rim, along with a great mid-range. I bring these up in the context of that era and the type of players who would have to try and defend him.

61 Lakers / 00 Kobe - Lose in Finals to Celtics
62 Lakers / 01 Kobe - Lakers beat Celtics in finals
63 Lakers / 02 Kobe - Lakers beat Celtics in finals
64 Lakers / 03 Kobe - Lose in Finals to Celtics
65 Lakers / 04 Kobe - Lose in Finals to Celtics
66 Lakers / 05 Kobe - Lose to Hawks in WCF
67 Lakers / 06 Kobe - Lose to 76ers in Finals
68 Lakers / 07 Kobe - Lakers beat Celtics in Finals
69 Lakers / 08 Kobe - Lakers beat Celtics in Finals
70 Lakers / 09 Kobe - Lakers beat Knicks in Finals
71 Lakers / 10 Kobe - Lakers beat Bucks in Finals
72 Lakers / 11 Kobe - Lakers beat Knicks in Finals
73 Lakers / 12 Kobe - Lakers beat Knicks in Finals
74 Lakers / 13 Kobe - Lakers lose to Bucks in 1st round

Lakers go back to back early in the 60s before Hondo is going. And become dominant once Wilt comes over creating the GOAT big 3 in NBA history.

Seriously, 8 titles? And you want to claim you’re an unbiased fan lol.

Kobe is in no way, shape or form worth 7 more titles than West. This is a guy who was routinely mediocre in the Finals, and you think he’s wining 7 more titles than a guy who was often brilliant in them?

Kobe had 5 rings, and got them in a NBA with more than 8 teams. Tell me which years are wrong?

Prime Kobe won three straight with Shaq, and back to back with Pau. Once Wilt comes to LA in 69 with that defensive focus, who is beating LA's big 3 of Kobe, Wilt, Elgin??? What guards are they throwing at Kobe to even try to defend while Wilt is down below?

Yes, put Kobe on those Laker teams and he feasts. Keep in mind how many times West made the Finals.

They aren't winning in 62, 63, 69, 71, or 73. 68 and 70 are tenous at best. And West was a better playoff performer than Kobe, the time-machine argument is a fair one but just based on what they did during their careers it isn't close.

[tsherkin]

[ there weren’t that many people he would emulate if he was born in the 40s, and developed as a player pre pro in the 50s, west was ridiculously ahead of his time watching it

I don't know. he could have easily been drafted later than Baylor and looked up to him growing up. The effort and focus were clearly there, so I think he would have found some source of motivation regardless.

Kobe especially is someone that probably translates well to earlier eras, in the sense that you could make the argument all things considered he’s been the best 1v1 perimeter scorer in the 21st century, that relied more than his peers on his post game, which through his prime (06-09 imo) does show up as absolutely ridiculous for a perimeter player

If you take in context that he was a good shooter who had a post game, I can't see him being worse than, for example, Baylor. He had size, he had athleticism, he had a game which suited well even without being able to get to the rim quite the same way as he did in his own career because of how packed the paint was. He drew fouls well enough, like it's pretty clear Kobe would be a top-end perimeter star at any point in league history. He might struggle with the modern age a little in terms of the relative value of his offense because he wasn't a prize 3pt shooter and was never dominant with his efficiency... but then we can play with stuff like "how would he develop born a little later" and all that.


My point wasn't to say Kobe couldn't play in the 60s, I just meant that there would be some little things which would alter his direct performance profile and so looking at what he did in his own time and projecting back is tough when trying to look at replacing West. For example, would he be a comparable offensive option? Well, in-era, 64-72, West was a 56.6% TS guy. Kobe was a career 55.0% TS guy, and 52.0% without the 3PT shot. But of course, that's on his whole career vs a selection from West. So instead, let's look at 2000-2013. Now we see that he's at 55.6% TS for that stretch, and 52.8% without the 3. All of a sudden, he looks a lot more like Baylor, right? Better, though, somewhere in between Baylor (who was a career 49.4% TS guy and never reached 52%) and West.

Food for thought, anyway. Kobe was a better shooter than Baylor, so perhaps that difference isn't so surprising, but we're discussing replacing West. I think the Lakers would be materially worse for having done so, but they'd be a lot better if they replaced Baylor with Kobe.