RealGM

Who was more obsessed with Winning?

Neither were so obsessed with winning that they would give up their individual status and dominance to achieve it IMO. Kobe willingly blew up things with Shaq so he could get more credit for the wins, even if it meant less wins.

Kind of an overrated concept either way, I'm not sure the obsession with it.

How are we supposed to know this? None of know these two personally. Such a pointless question with no real answer.

MJ never pulled his jersey across his chest after a game winning shot like Kobe did once so I'd say Kobe.

MJ…easily.

Jordan literally competes with everything & all times lol pretty much any person or player that Jordan has had an interaction with has a story about him wanting to compete with them over something…

yeah we can't possibly know, and its important to realize unlike a Russell or a Duncan, these guys wanted to win badly, but only if they were the star as it happened. If the team won the title and they averaged 15 ppg, they'd have been pissed.

Jordan has the best killer instinct on/off but kobe is off the charts in black mamba-ness per 48

MJ was insanely competitive, but he too was arguably more concentrated to be the winner himself. So if a player tried to challenge him, he took up the challenge and tried to beat him (and most of the time he succeeded doing so), sometimes to the detriment of his team.

Kobe wasn't exactly obsessed with winning per se. He was more obsessed with being the best player he could be (for sure one of the most obsessed ever in that regard), and his interpretation of being the best player was being the player who made his team win.

I don't think that many other players didn't want to win games and championships any less. Some of them spent incredible time to improve their skills, too, and were devastated when they didn't win. But they might have had another approach to reach their goals, Bill Russell for example, who didn't try to do it all by himself and who realized that it was best for his team to let the other players play up to their strengths, while concentrating on his own biggest strengths. He didn't care about Wilt scoring on him for some plays, just to lull him into a mood that everything went for Chamberlain. Because he knew that this was his best shot to win with his team later in the game when he was taking the gloves off. Sacrificing one's own reputation to let your team have a better shot to win is just another kind of obsession. IMO not a smaller one.

NO-KG-AI wrote: Kobe willingly blew up things with Shaq so he could get more credit for the wins, even if it meant less wins.

Yeah that didn't happen, but ok.

This is something nearly impossible to measure and I don't put these two above Russell, KAJ, Magic, Bird or others in this category but the more important thing is how this manifests itself on the court. That is what really sets players apart imo.

Corny topic but if I had to guess it's probably not the guy who forced the best player on his team out of town

Masigond wrote:Kobe wasn't exactly obsessed with winning per se. He was more obsessed with being the best player he could be

That's not quite accurate, given some of his egregious bad habits on the court. He certainly had an outstanding work ethic and motivation, of course, but his obsession cannot be fairly described as focused on being the best he could be when he left certain things about his game unchanged over the course of his entire career. He never slacked on amount of work, though, you never had to worry that he was taking an off-season off or whatever.

If we’re being fair, Kevin Durant has now twice completely nuked his entire reputation and legacy in the public eye all in the sake of assuring he wins.

He and LeBron have to be #1 and #2 with the obsession and lengths they go to just to try and secure a championship, even if it ends up hollow.

Kobe was more obsessed, MJ was more competitive/driven.

tsherkin wrote:

Masigond wrote:Kobe wasn't exactly obsessed with winning per se. He was more obsessed with being the best player he could be

That's not quite accurate, given some of his egregious bad habits on the court. He certainly had an outstanding work ethic and motivation, of course, but his obsession cannot be fairly described as focused on being the best he could be when he left certain things about his game unchanged over the course of his entire career. He never slacked on amount of work, though, you never had to worry that he was taking an off-season off or whatever.

Trying to be the best player he could be doesn't mean that Kobe's interpretation of what makes a player truly the best was right (I think I mentioned before on this board that IMO Kobe neither had the best basketball instincts nor the best basketball IQ). One can put a lot of effort in doing things that won't lead to the best outcome.

Let's take a fictional example: Shaq was known for being somewhat lazy. But let's assume that he were obsessed with becoming the best 3P shooting big man. He could have invested more effort than everybody else, and still the outcome would have been awful. That doesn't change that he would have been trying to accomplish that goal with great obsession.

Masigond wrote:Trying to be the best player he could be doesn't mean that Kobe's interpretation of what makes a player truly the best was right (I think I mentioned before on this board that IMO Kobe neither had the best basketball instincts nor the best basketball IQ). One can put a lot of effort in doing things that won't lead to the best outcome.

Yes, one can indeed put in a lot of work and not reach best outcome, no doubt. But I'd debate your basketball IQ remark; I always thought Kobe's problem wasn't that he didn't know what the right play WAS, it's that he elected not to do it. He had a very consistent approach to the game, and he was very open about it. In his youth, he had a little trouble putting aside his ego, but as a vet in charge of his own team, he was a little different. Fair play on the remark about his interpretation of what was best, though.

Still, and circling back to the basic conceit of the thread, I don't see anything about how he approached the game of basketball suggesting he was MORE obsessed with winning than Jordan. Like, if we were talking about anyone else, then sure, but not MJ. This isn't necessarily a desirable trait, so I don't really consider it a positive Kobe-vs-Mike kind of deal. But like Jordan would cheat his own mother at cards. I don't think Kobe was in quite that camp where winning meant that much to him, you know what I mean? Regardless, the onus here is prove that one or the other is MORE obsessed, and I just don't see a defense at least for the idea that Kobe was MORE obsessed.

tsherkin wrote:But I'd debate your basketball IQ remark; I always thought Kobe's problem wasn't that he didn't know what the right play WAS, it's that he elected not to do it. He had a very consistent approach to the game, and he was very open about it. In his youth, he had a little trouble putting aside his ego, but as a vet in charge of his own team, he was a little different. Fair play on the remark about his interpretation of what was best, though.

I often think of what Jamison claimed: That Kobe told his teammates to yell at him when he should pass more. I think that shows that he really didn't know what the right play should have been in certain situations because he was too much in pure scoring mode. I don't think that it was a decision made but lack of instinct / IQ.
https://nba.nbcsports.com/2013/03/21/kobe-bryant-tells-his-teammates-not-to-expect-passes-from-him-unless-they-demand-the-ball/

Let's not forget that this happened in Kobe 17th (!) NBA season. He had recognized that his decision making could have been better but given the work effort he had shown learning all those post moves or Dirk's fallaway jumper and so much else makes me assume that he knew that he would not be able to learn to read plays better (for his teammates, that is). When it were his choice not to pass and thus help his team more but rather remain a player preferring to sort out scoring opportunities for himself, why did he tell his teammates to help him pass when it would be the better play? He wasn't as ignorant as Iverson who never seemed to understand that his style of play would not lead to championships (and who fled into excuses like that all his accolades were showing that he was doing things right. A plethora of fans seemed to think so, too).

But yeah, all that doesn't tell much about obsession with winning. Too many fans reduce Basketball too much on what single players actually show on the court. In theory the player most obsessed with winning (a game, a championship) could think that he were a detriment to his own team and yell at his coach to take him out of the game if he thought that this would help his team win the most. Playing through injuries or trying to do it all by oneself are just some kinds of many approaches to accomplish the goal.

Kobe had the mamba mentality and intimidated his opponents by doing this, so I'll go with him

It would be an oversimplification to call Kobe a carbon copy of MJ but I certainly wouldn't put him ahead in such a defining characteristic

MJ since he didn't lose with HCA.