Greatest Peaks Project (2022): #18 - 2005-06 Dwyane Wade

[iggymcfrack]

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fwiw iggy, if you list ONLY '96 Robinson as your choice, LABird is not assuming your vote is transferable to other DRob seasons (such as '94 or '95)......not unless you indicate as much (e.g. "'96 Robinson ('94, '95)").
Perhaps you feel '96 Robinson is distinctly [far] better than '94 or '95; but this is a friendly FYI in case it's an oversight.

Top 5 seasons
06 Wade: 0.805 (214-52)
09 Wade: 0.776 (180-52)
17 Leonard: 0.747 (183-62)
76 Erving: 0.725 (161-61)
08 Bryant: 0.632 (98-57)

Above fyi taken into account, I'm still wondering how '94 Robinson can come out behind '08 Kobe.

I counted two 1st-place votes for '08 Kobe, and ZERO 2nd or 3rd place votes (a couple people did indicate he'd be their 4th pick--->though my understanding of the rules is that 4th thru Xth picks do not factor into H2H records).

'94 Robinson, otoh, even excluding iggymcfrack's vote for reason above, still has two 1st-place votes [same as Kobe] (assuming my vote for '95 Robinson was properly transferred, the literal ONLY H2H '94 Robinson was losing on mine was to '95 Robinson) and a 2nd-place vote........thus is it statistically possible to actually be behind Kobe in H2H record?

I wouldn't think the single H2H loss [to '95 Robinson] on my ballot would be enough to push him behind Kobe in this circumstance; the additional 2nd-place vote should give him ample additional wins to compensate.


EDIT: Makes me think players with multiple peak(ish) years are indeed being penalized for it. For example, since two seasons of Kobe have been suggested, whereas THREE of Robinson have been........when someone votes Kobe > Robinson here, Kobe's basically getting a 3-0 H2H record against DRob.
But when someone thinks Robinson > Kobe, Robinson only gets a 2-0 H2H boost.

Thanks for pointing this out. I actually had a hard time deciding which year to use for Robinson’s peak so I’ll correct that for the future.

[Eagle4]

06 isn’t even Wade’s best season

Yes it is. The post-season matters.

So why is Jokic over Wade?

[SickMother]

06 isn’t even Wade’s best season

Yes it is. The post-season matters.

So why is Jokic over Wade?

Because different voters place more or less emphasis on different criteria & in the end that was the collective will of the fifteen voters in that particular round (which ostensibly ended in a six way tie so its a pretty narrow margin to begin with).

I personally wouldn't have Jokic or Garnett ranked as high as they are, but can also understand that they didn't necessarily have the quality of teammates typically required to win a Championship so its hard to penalize them too much for not doing so.

At the same time, no one knows who the second best player (or anybody else, really) on the 76 Nets was & Dr. J had a more all around dominant campaign from start to finish than either of Jokic or Garnett (or Wade) and he's still on the board so who really knows.

[SpreeS]

This ranking is so random…

I don't participate regulary due to personal reasons, but why do you think so? What would you really change here?

I compare 2019 list with this year.

Curry from 15th to 11th
Erving from 12th to 19th at best, but I doubt if he will be next.
West has better peak than Wade/Walton/Erving now compared to 2019

TOP10 careers and peaks lists are with same players. This list is very based from careers achievements.

[70sFan]

This ranking is so random…

I don't participate regulary due to personal reasons, but why do you think so? What would you really change here?

I compare 2019 list with this year.

Curry from 15th to 11th
Erving from 12th to 19th at best, but I doubt if he will be next.
West has better peak than Wade/Walton/Erving now compared to 2019

TOP10 careers and peaks lists are with same players. This list is very based from careers achievements.

Why do you think the previous one is better? What would you change in the list then?

[No-more-rings]

06 isn’t even Wade’s best season

Yes it is. The post-season matters.

So why is Jokic over Wade?

I think it’s a reasonable take, however when the panel goes Giannis>Jokic due to the huge defensive advantage but then Jokic>Drob it doesn’t seem so consistent.

It’s a good exercise to try and rank players, but I wouldn’t take any of the results as gospel of course.

[AEnigma]

Yes it is. The post-season matters.

So why is Jokic over Wade?

I think it’s a reasonable take, however when the panel goes Giannis>Jokic due to the huge defensive advantage but then Jokic>Drob it doesn’t seem so consistent.

It’s a good exercise to try and rank players, but I wouldn’t take any of the results as gospel of course.

Not so consistent, if you ignore all the explicitly stated reasons why people felt there was a meaningful postseason difference…
(Which is not to say I personally give Jokic more of a postseason advantage than Robinson with how much of a defensive disadvantage Jokic provides, but that was clearly the sentiment overall.)

If people get “confused” about the project, maybe they should read through the project. I had Wade over Jokic, but the sentiment was that Jokic was simply starting at a higher level than Wade. Not that tough — but then again, these “confusions” seem more focused on whining about results than on trying to make sense of them.

[No-more-rings]

So why is Jokic over Wade?

I think it’s a reasonable take, however when the panel goes Giannis>Jokic due to the huge defensive advantage but then Jokic>Drob it doesn’t seem so consistent.

It’s a good exercise to try and rank players, but I wouldn’t take any of the results as gospel of course.

Not so consistent, if you ignore all the explicitly stated reasons why people felt there was a meaningful postseason difference…
(Which is not to say I personally give Jokic more of a postseason advantage than Robinson with how much of a defensive disadvantage Jokic provides, but that was clearly the sentiment overall.)

If people get “confused” about the project, maybe they should read through the project. I had Wade over Jokic, but the sentiment was that Jokic was simply starting at a higher level than Wade. Not that tough — but then again, these “confusions” seem more focused on whining about results than on trying to make sense of them.

Don’t see how voicing concerns or disagreements equates to whining. I don’t think i’ve seen anyone outright whine or get angry like we’ve seen in the past. Overall the results are more or less similar to what they were in the past, there’s some variances nothing too egregious overall I don’t think anyone’s saying that.

[SpreeS]

I don't participate regulary due to personal reasons, but why do you think so? What would you really change here?

I compare 2019 list with this year.

Curry from 15th to 11th
Erving from 12th to 19th at best, but I doubt if he will be next.
West has better peak than Wade/Walton/Erving now compared to 2019

TOP10 careers and peaks lists are with same players. This list is very based from careers achievements.

Why do you think the previous one is better? What would you change in the list then?

I dont think that 2019 list is better. I talk about differences in ranking of past peaks.

What i dont like in 2022 list

1. The gap between Duncan and KG/Giannis. Thier peaks are way closer.
2. O'Neal peak is too high for me. He had very weak oppenents, only SAN have good front court. O'Neal played 5 series against SAN and was very earthly with 23,88 pts/game.

[Dutchball97]

Lists like this are always going to look pretty random because there are many different people with different criteria voting. I've had Dr J on my ballot since round 9 because of his relative dominance over his competition and his impressive play-off performance, while Robinson has also been getting traction for like 10 rounds now due to his insane impact stats and 2-way play. I don't think either criteria is more valid than the other but of course there are going to be some very different players being put forward with little overlap. You've also got the discussion of older eras vs modern players and how to look at them, you've got people looking purely at how a player did in his specific peak season while others value portability etc. These projects aren't meant to produce definitive rankings.

[AEnigma]

Definitely agree on Shaq; kind-of annoying that he is so enshrined in that top three spot for arguments that throughout the years have always seemed much lazier than what we see for most other players. In this project, there has generally been a continuation of the growing pushback against superficial statsheet reliance, but Shaq per usual escaped it. Maybe next project that reckoning will finally come.

[70sFan]

I compare 2019 list with this year.

Curry from 15th to 11th
Erving from 12th to 19th at best, but I doubt if he will be next.
West has better peak than Wade/Walton/Erving now compared to 2019

TOP10 careers and peaks lists are with same players. This list is very based from careers achievements.

Why do you think the previous one is better? What would you change in the list then?

I dont think that 2019 list is better. I talk about differences in ranking of past peaks.

What i dont like in 2022 list

1. The gap between Duncan and KG/Giannis. Thier peaks are way closer.
2. O'Neal peak is too high for me. He had very weak oppenents, only SAN have good front court. O'Neal played 5 series against SAN and was very earthly with 23,88 pts/game.

1. I probably agree with KG, not sure about Giannis though. Either way, would you have Duncan lower, or the two higher?

2. I also have Shaq considerably lower, but for different reasons. His defense was the huge question to me, I still don't know why people put Shaq ahead of Kareem to be honest.

[falcolombardi]

Why do you think the previous one is better? What would you change in the list then?

I dont think that 2019 list is better. I talk about differences in ranking of past peaks.

What i dont like in 2022 list

1. The gap between Duncan and KG/Giannis. Thier peaks are way closer.
2. O'Neal peak is too high for me. He had very weak oppenents, only SAN have good front court. O'Neal played 5 series against SAN and was very earthly with 23,88 pts/game.

1. I probably agree with KG, not sure about Giannis though. Either way, would you have Duncan lower, or the two higher?

2. I also have Shaq considerably lower, but for different reasons. His defense was the huge question to me, I still don't know why people put Shaq ahead of Kareem to be honest.

I think the real reason is just that shaq is much more recent, but the reasoning usually seems to be about him being more "portable" offensively, at least that js ben taylor view if why he ranks shaq as the best big peak. He thinks shaq is more active and impactful without the ball than other bigs

And while shaq is the superior offensive rebounder from what i have seen i dont know if it makws up for the defense and efficiency gaps

[LA Bird]

I'm still wondering how '94 Robinson can come out behind '08 Kobe.

I counted two 1st-place votes for '08 Kobe, and ZERO 2nd or 3rd place votes (a couple people did indicate he'd be their 4th pick--->though my understanding of the rules is that 4th thru Xth picks do not factor into H2H records).

'94 Robinson, otoh, even excluding iggymcfrack's vote for reason above, still has two 1st-place votes [same as Kobe] (assuming my vote for '95 Robinson was properly transferred, the literal ONLY H2H '94 Robinson was losing on mine was to '95 Robinson) and a 2nd-place vote........thus is it statistically possible to actually be behind Kobe in H2H record?

I wouldn't think the single H2H loss [to '95 Robinson] on my ballot would be enough to push him behind Kobe in this circumstance; the additional 2nd-place vote should give him ample additional wins to compensate.

For the record, these are all the votes I counted for this round:

AEnigma, 08 Bryant, 09 Bryant, 09 Wade, 06 Wade, 20 Davis
trelos6, 94 Robinson, 17 Leonard, 17 Durant
f4p, 17 Leonard, 19 Leonard, 83 Malone, 82 Malone, 06 Wade, 09 Wade
Samurai, 76 Erving, 94 Robinson, 50 Mikan
CharityStripe34, 59 Pettit, 58 Pettit, 62 Pettit, 06 Wade, 09 Wade, 10 Wade, 83 Malone
Dutchball97, 76 Erving, 83 Malone, 06 Wade
Ron Swanson, 06 Wade, 76 Erving, 17 Leonard
SickMother, 76 Erving, 68 Hawkins, 17 Leonard
falcolombardi, 50 Mikan, 51 Mikan, 06 Wade, 09 Wade, 10 Wade, 07 Nash, 06 Nash, 09 Bryant, 11 Nowitzki, 17 Leonard, 19 Leonard
ardee, 08 Bryant, 06 Bryant, 09 Wade, 06 Wade, 11 Nowitzki, 06 Nowitzki
trex_8063, 95 Robinson, 94 Robinson, 96 Robinson, 76 Erving, 14 Durant, 17 Durant, 16 Durant
iggymcfrack, 96 Robinson, 17 Leonard, 11 Nowitzki
Proxy, 20 Davis, 08 Bryant, 09 Bryant, 07 Bryant, 06 Bryant, 17 Durant, 18 Durant, 16 Durant, 14 Durant
Colbinii, 07 Nash, 05 Nash, 09 Wade, 10 Wade, 20 Harden, 19 Harden, 18 Harden

You missed Proxy's vote for Kobe though the formatting there was a bit confusing to be fair. 08 Kobe and 94 Robinson were tied 3-3 in a direct H2H so the difference was that the Kobe voters listed more seasons on their ballots which indirectly deflated the other H2H records for any player not on their ballot. This issue could be reduced by iteratively limiting the H2H records to only those between the top seasons but in any case, both of them were pretty close no matter how you look at it.

my understanding of the rules is that 4th thru Xth picks do not factor into H2H records

FYI, every ordered pick with a season included factors into the H2H records. I have been recommending people to list as many players as possible from the start but this is especially relevant now since there are no stand out candidates in any round.

EDIT: Makes me think players with multiple peak(ish) years are indeed being penalized for it. For example, since two seasons of Kobe have been suggested, whereas THREE of Robinson have been........when someone votes Kobe > Robinson here, Kobe's basically getting a 3-0 H2H record against DRob.
But when someone thinks Robinson > Kobe, Robinson only gets a 2-0 H2H boost.

The H2H record is between each season not player so 94 Robinson is still credited with H2H wins against 95 Robinson and 96 Robinson for example. This actually benefits players with more peak-ish years so I might have to limit each player to only one peak season in these H2Hs.

[trex_8063]

moved to new thread