2011 Derrick Rose vs Peak Kyrie Irving

Narigo · Post #1 » by **Narigo** » Mon Aug 15, 2022 7:22 pm

Who do you think peaked higher

mdonnelly1989 · Post #2 » by **mdonnelly1989** » Mon Aug 15, 2022 7:31 pm

Derrick Rose put a team on his back and had he not got injured against the 76ers in 2012 Bulls had a solid chance to Beat the Heat in 7. And win a Chip.

No contest. Kyrie like a max 90/100 type of player. Derrick Rose is around a 93/94 and slightly ahead of Dame Lillard just very slightly behind Luka.

No-more-rings · Post #3 » by **No-more-rings** » Mon Aug 15, 2022 7:48 pm

Rose seemed more capable as a 1st option.

Post #4 » by **tsherkin** » Mon Aug 15, 2022 10:32 pm

mdonnelly1989 wrote:Derrick Rose put a team on his back and had he not got injured against the 76ers in 2012 Bulls had a solid chance to Beat the Heat in 7. And win a Chip.

I mean, the D put the team on its back and his straightforward offense got them through the RS, for sure. And they were able to fight through the east with some pretty limp offensive performances. In his defense, they didn't have any real offensive talent with him and he was a POA game without useful size, so it's not surprising that he was individually uninspiring, but it is still very clear that defense and rebounding drove that team. It was very much like the 2001 Sixers. Still a strong overall floor-raising effort, but like, not separated from Irving at all.

Focusing then, on 2011 Rose, I'm not really seeing a major point of separation here. Rose wasn't an incredible defender, he just didn't stop Chicago from being able to kill it defensively.

We're ultimately talking about similar POA guards, though Kyrie at his peak was a better shooter and Rose more with the linear athleticism and lack of reliable range.

Cavsfansince84 · Post #5 » by **Cavsfansince84** » Mon Aug 15, 2022 11:27 pm

I feel like Kyrie proved a bit more even if he did it as a #2 to Rose's 1. Rose's whole style of play was a bit too hectic for my tastes.

iggymcfrack · Post #6 » by **iggymcfrack** » Wed Aug 17, 2022 8:35 am

Rose may have been one of the most undeserved MVPs of all-time, but he still led a team with no other stars to the best record in the league and was undeniably a top 10 player in his MVP season. Kyrie's never even been a top 20 player. He's consistently been a liability on the defensive end and in the locker room. Even in his most memorable season, he was clearly the 3rd best player on his team the whole season until the Finals.

SOdisciple · Post #7 » by **SOdisciple** » Wed Aug 17, 2022 2:14 pm

mdonnelly1989 wrote:Derrick Rose put a team on his back and had he not got injured against the 76ers in 2012 Bulls had a solid chance to Beat the Heat in 7. And win a Chip.

No contest. Kyrie like a max 90/100 type of player. Derrick Rose is around a 93/94 and slightly ahead of Dame Lillard just very slightly behind Luka.

D-Rose is one of my favorite players of all time but I'm curious what the argument is for 2011 Rose over 2020 or 2021 Lillard, at least from a statistical standpoint.

Bomb81 · Post #8 » by **Bomb81** » Sat Aug 20, 2022 5:44 pm

Derrick Rose.

HeartBreakKid · Post #9 » by **HeartBreakKid** » Sun Aug 21, 2022 3:32 am

Rose for sure. Irving's claim to fame is scoring well while playing in a big 3 with arguably the goat for like two post seasons lol. Guy hasn't had a complete RS+PS that was good before or after that.

It's not inconceivable that if Rose played with another all-nba guy he'd have similar results to Irving. Also, while Rose is not as efficient as Irving overall their peaks are 5+ years apart, Rose played in a slightly less efficient league so the gap isn't as big as the numbers suggest.

JordansBulls · Post #10 » by **JordansBulls** » Sun Aug 21, 2022 5:00 am

Rose. Won league mvp and led team to #1 seed multiple years.

magicman1978 · Post #11 » by **magicman1978** » Mon Aug 22, 2022 2:58 pm

SOdisciple wrote:
mdonnelly1989 wrote:Derrick Rose put a team on his back and had he not got injured against the 76ers in 2012 Bulls had a solid chance to Beat the Heat in 7. And win a Chip.

No contest. Kyrie like a max 90/100 type of player. Derrick Rose is around a 93/94 and slightly ahead of Dame Lillard just very slightly behind Luka.

D-Rose is one of my favorite players of all time but I'm curious what the argument is for 2011 Rose over 2020 or 2021 Lillard, at least from a statistical standpoint.

Hard to compare the last few years to 2011 statistically I think. The league is more offense friendly than ever. The Blazers in 2021 scored almost 18 more ppg than the 2011 Bulls. They took 40.8 3s per game and hit them at a 38.5% clip. the 2011 Bulls took 17.3 per game at made 36%. The additional spacing, less physicality allowed on the perimeter, and lax moving screen rules make it easier for scorers today.

sp6r=underrated · Post #12 » by **sp6r=underrated** » Mon Aug 22, 2022 3:22 pm

Narigo wrote:Who do you think peaked higher

Rose. I'll only pick Kyrie in players who he clearly surpassed. His mental makeup is all-time bad. And that matters. He's wrecked multiple teams throughout his career. And I think even in his peak years the issues were there but the team just got lucky that he held it together.

mdonnelly1989 · Post #13 » by **mdonnelly1989** » Mon Aug 22, 2022 5:26 pm

magicman1978 wrote:
SOdisciple wrote:
mdonnelly1989 wrote:Derrick Rose put a team on his back and had he not got injured against the 76ers in 2012 Bulls had a solid chance to Beat the Heat in 7. And win a Chip.

No contest. Kyrie like a max 90/100 type of player. Derrick Rose is around a 93/94 and slightly ahead of Dame Lillard just very slightly behind Luka.

D-Rose is one of my favorite players of all time but I'm curious what the argument is for 2011 Rose over 2020 or 2021 Lillard, at least from a statistical standpoint.

Hard to compare the last few years to 2011 statistically I think. The league is more offense friendly than ever. The Blazers in 2021 scored almost 18 more ppg than the 2011 Bulls. They took 40.8 3s per game and hit them at a 38.5% clip. the 2011 Bulls took 17.3 per game at made 36%. The additional spacing, less physicality allowed on the perimeter, and lax moving screen rules make it easier for scorers today.

In other words D Rose would be averaging somewhere around 32-33 PPG in todays league on the same Bulls team.

SOdisciple · Post #14 » by **SOdisciple** » Mon Aug 22, 2022 5:27 pm

magicman1978 wrote:
SOdisciple wrote:
mdonnelly1989 wrote:Derrick Rose put a team on his back and had he not got injured against the 76ers in 2012 Bulls had a solid chance to Beat the Heat in 7. And win a Chip.

No contest. Kyrie like a max 90/100 type of player. Derrick Rose is around a 93/94 and slightly ahead of Dame Lillard just very slightly behind Luka.

D-Rose is one of my favorite players of all time but I'm curious what the argument is for 2011 Rose over 2020 or 2021 Lillard, at least from a statistical standpoint.

Hard to compare the last few years to 2011 statistically I think. The league is more offense friendly than ever. The Blazers in 2021 scored almost 18 more ppg than the 2011 Bulls. They took 40.8 3s per game and hit them at a 38.5% clip. the 2011 Bulls took 17.3 per game at made 36%. The additional spacing, less physicality allowed on the perimeter, and lax moving screen rules make it easier for scorers today.

Except the advanced stats that are supposed to account for those things still say Dame is better and more efficient

mcdonelly1989 wrote:In other words D Rose would be averaging somewhere around 32-33 PPG in todays league on the same Bulls team.

Zero chance that happens. Are you kidding me? I think like 2 or 3 players in the last 30 years have put up 33 ppg. For one to be able to put up numbers like that in this era you need to be an elite shooter.

magicman1978 · Post #15 » by **magicman1978** » Mon Aug 22, 2022 7:18 pm

SOdisciple wrote:
magicman1978 wrote:
SOdisciple wrote:D-Rose is one of my favorite players of all time but I'm curious what the argument is for 2011 Rose over 2020 or 2021 Lillard, at least from a statistical standpoint.

Hard to compare the last few years to 2011 statistically I think. The league is more offense friendly than ever. The Blazers in 2021 scored almost 18 more ppg than the 2011 Bulls. They took 40.8 3s per game and hit them at a 38.5% clip. the 2011 Bulls took 17.3 per game at made 36%. The additional spacing, less physicality allowed on the perimeter, and lax moving screen rules make it easier for scorers today.

Except the advanced stats that are supposed to account for those things still say Dame is better and more efficient

I don't agree that advance stats can account for those things as the changes in rules and style of play also change the types of players who can be more impactful. If you gave 2011 D Rose more spacing and the freedom of movement rules we have today, that would have increased the impact that he would have been able have.

For example, Derrick Rose was known for his ability to attack the hoop - we will compare stats for drives in 2021 vs 2014 (NBA.com doesn't have summarize stats before that, 2014 is a good approximation). in 2021, teams average 46.6 drives per game and .542 pts per drive. In 2014, it was 33.8 drives per game and .484 pts per drive. So the quantity of drives went up 38% and the efficiency went up 12%. I would imagine that Rose in that type of environment would have been more impactful.

Of course, it's difficult to determine, but it's just one of a number of factors that makes it difficult to directly compare stats.

No-more-rings · Post #16 » by **No-more-rings** » Mon Aug 22, 2022 7:37 pm

SOdisciple wrote:
mcdonelly1989 wrote:In other words D Rose would be averaging somewhere around 32-33 PPG in todays league on the same Bulls team.

Zero chance that happens. Are you kidding me? I think like 2 or 3 players in the last 30 years have put up 33 ppg. For one to be able to put up numbers like that in this era you need to be an elite shooter.

Ai averaged 33 ppg in 2006, and he was far from an elite shooter. It may not be optimal, but you don’t need to be an excellent shooter to take a ton of shots per game.

HeartBreakKid · Post #17 » by **HeartBreakKid** » Tue Aug 23, 2022 3:41 am

mdonnelly1989 wrote:
magicman1978 wrote:
SOdisciple wrote:D-Rose is one of my favorite players of all time but I'm curious what the argument is for 2011 Rose over 2020 or 2021 Lillard, at least from a statistical standpoint.

Hard to compare the last few years to 2011 statistically I think. The league is more offense friendly than ever. The Blazers in 2021 scored almost 18 more ppg than the 2011 Bulls. They took 40.8 3s per game and hit them at a 38.5% clip. the 2011 Bulls took 17.3 per game at made 36%. The additional spacing, less physicality allowed on the perimeter, and lax moving screen rules make it easier for scorers today.

In other words D Rose would be averaging somewhere around 32-33 PPG in todays league on the same Bulls team.

why would he lead the league in points today by a full 6 points when he didn't in 2011? That makes no sense.

It's like you're saying "oh well it's easier to score, so obviously Rose will score more!" not taking into account that going from 25 PPG to 33 is a ridiculous jump. Rose was already like on league average % just scoring 25 points, he would be terrible if he averaged over 30.

You did not even consider that Rose was 7th in scoring in 2011 (clumped with nearly 10 players), so playing with peers under the same condition he was not any type of scoring stand out.

Saying Derrick Rose would average 33 points per game is like saying Monta Ellis would average 32 points per game today.

Pelly24 · Post #18 » by **Pelly24** » Tue Aug 23, 2022 11:20 pm

I think 2018-2021 Kyrie was all-around better on paper and is more scalable to more teams, but D. Rose just seemed more unstoppable because of his pure speed.

By his technical peak, I think Kyrie maybe lost his 2k11-2k15 half court speed and as a result relied more on midrange jumpers, which in term made him not that great at scoring once his midrange game and three-ball weren't doing well. I also think Kyrie is a wackjob and maybe mental issues held him back in 2k19 playoffs in a way they wouldn't have for Rose.

Giving this to Rose

Asianiac_24 · Post #19 » by **Asianiac_24** » Wed Aug 24, 2022 4:32 pm

If peak Kyrie is 2016/2017 Cavs Kyrie before he went off the deep end, Kyrie > Rose IMO. Better and much more efficient scorer

HeartBreakKid · Post #20 » by **HeartBreakKid** » Wed Aug 24, 2022 5:14 pm

Asianiac_24 wrote:If peak Kyrie is 2016/2017 Cavs Kyrie before he went off the deep end, Kyrie > Rose IMO. Better and much more efficient scorer

Kyrie isn't much more efficient. I am not sure where this stereotype exist, I guess because he is a good jump shooter.

Kyrie was actually less efficient than Derrick Rose in 2016 during the regular season.

Considering how offensive friendly of a system Kyrie plays in, he was never all that efficient. He was always only slightly above league average in efficiency.

Rose efficiency in the 2011 post season is not good of course, but neither would Kyrie Irvings if he was a #1 option (in fact this did happen in 2019, and his TS% was the same as Roses').

Who peaked higher??