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Random thought about how guys like 2004 ben wallace/chauncey billups or 1978 wes unseld may have get the "you cannot win with him as your best player" treatment if it was not for them actually winning

These are the potential guys i thought of

-2014 kawhi/tony parker
-2004 ben wallace/billups
-89/90 isiah thomas
-1979 gus williams
-1978 wes unseld

Is there any other player you can think of that fits this ?

I would take Hayes and Dandridge over Unseld in 1978. But none of them could would be seen as the core guy to a title winning team.

Billups could be seen as a 2021 Chris Paul type of player. Gus and Isiah could potentially be just because that explosive scoring point guard archetype is always popular; I could see them favourably compared to Ja or something, although more negatively maybe they could be lumped in with De’Aaron Fox. Tony Parker too, I guess, although he struggled in the playoffs much more than Gus or Isiah.

Ben Wallace and 2014 Kawhi would never be valued like that, and 2014 Duncan suffers too much by comparisons with other bigs.

You did not mention them, but John Havlicek and Dave Cowens would probably not be seen that way either. Basically, you need to be a scorer to be valued as a potential title leader anymore.

Kawhi in 2019 [Often injured since and 2020 Clippers meltdown] while he was never the clear BPA during the Duncan Era.

AD in 2020 [Often injured].

Isiah was top 5 in MVP and multiple all-nba 1st teams. I don't think he belongs on this list. Unseld, with an MVP, as well..

"wouldn't be seen as"? Everything that isn't a superstar scorer.

That is, Russell, Duncan, Garnett, late Wilt, Reed, Frazier, Walton, Moses Malone...

Gus Williams was too fast to guard in 1979 and would still be too fast to guard today.

The old time offensive players score even better when surrounded by modern 3 point shooters.

The problem for the old team is that they have to defend the very good modern offenses.

euroleague wrote:Isiah was top 5 in MVP and multiple all-nba 1st teams. I don't think he belongs on this list. Unseld, with an MVP, as well..

89 and '90 Thomas wasn't anywhere near MVP and was last all-NBA in '87 (would have eked in as the last member of the 3rd team in '88 had it existed but that's a different implied percentile in a 23 team league). And the list is surely relating "in that year" or else it would not feature Leonard.

Regardless, if you're just talking at some point in their career Billups came fifth with a much better vote share (Thomas's "top 5" was 5th)
Leonard has been second and third.
Parker has a 5th with a better vote share.
Williams has a 5th place with marginally better vote share ...
Whether the list is accurately named or not, by that criteria he fits fairly neatly with that group.

Owly wrote:

euroleague wrote:Isiah was top 5 in MVP and multiple all-nba 1st teams. I don't think he belongs on this list. Unseld, with an MVP, as well..

89 and '90 Thomas wasn't anywhere near MVP and was last all-NBA in '87 (would have eked in as the last member of the 3rd team in '88 had it existed but that's a different implied percentile in a 23 team league). And the list is surely relating "in that year" or else it would not feature Leonard.

Regardless, if you're just talking at some point in their career Billups came fifth with a much better vote share (Thomas's "top 5" was 5th)
Leonard has been second and third.
Parker has a 5th with a better vote share.
Williams has a 5th place with marginally better vote share ...
Whether the list is accurately named or not, by that criteria he fits fairly neatly with that group.

Isiah Thomas was focused on being a leader rather than putting up raw numbers for the Bad Boy Pistons. Its not a coincidence that his teammates all praise him as the leader and best player. Its not a coincidence that the fans and players from that era considered Isiah to be the next superstar after Bird, Magic, and MJ.

Stalwart wrote:

Owly wrote:

euroleague wrote:Isiah was top 5 in MVP and multiple all-nba 1st teams. I don't think he belongs on this list. Unseld, with an MVP, as well..

89 and '90 Thomas wasn't anywhere near MVP and was last all-NBA in '87 (would have eked in as the last member of the 3rd team in '88 had it existed but that's a different implied percentile in a 23 team league). And the list is surely relating "in that year" or else it would not feature Leonard.

Regardless, if you're just talking at some point in their career Billups came fifth with a much better vote share (Thomas's "top 5" was 5th)
Leonard has been second and third.
Parker has a 5th with a better vote share.
Williams has a 5th place with marginally better vote share ...
Whether the list is accurately named or not, by that criteria he fits fairly neatly with that group.

Isiah Thomas was focused on being a leader rather than putting up raw numbers for the Bad Boy Pistons. Its not a coincidence that his teammates all praise him as the leader and best player. Its not a coincidence that the fans and players from that era considered Isiah to be the next superstar after Bird, Magic, and MJ.

Thomas teammates opinions about him weren't nearly as one sided as you described. It's also not true that Thomas was seen as the next superstar after big three. In fact, it's completely reinterpretative to what actually happen during Pistons title years.

70sFan wrote:

Stalwart wrote:

Owly wrote:89 and '90 Thomas wasn't anywhere near MVP and was last all-NBA in '87 (would have eked in as the last member of the 3rd team in '88 had it existed but that's a different implied percentile in a 23 team league). And the list is surely relating "in that year" or else it would not feature Leonard.

Regardless, if you're just talking at some point in their career Billups came fifth with a much better vote share (Thomas's "top 5" was 5th)
Leonard has been second and third.
Parker has a 5th with a better vote share.
Williams has a 5th place with marginally better vote share ...
Whether the list is accurately named or not, by that criteria he fits fairly neatly with that group.

Isiah Thomas was focused on being a leader rather than putting up raw numbers for the Bad Boy Pistons. Its not a coincidence that his teammates all praise him as the leader and best player. Its not a coincidence that the fans and players from that era considered Isiah to be the next superstar after Bird, Magic, and MJ.

Thomas teammates opinions about him weren't nearly as one sided as you described. It's also not true that Thomas was seen as the next superstar after big three. In fact, it's completely reinterpretative to what actually happen during Pistons title years.

Who would you say was the face of the league after the Big 3 in the mid to late 80s?

Jaivl wrote:"wouldn't be seen as"? Everything that isn't a superstar scorer.

That is, Russell, Duncan, Garnett, late Wilt, Reed, Frazier, Walton, Moses Malone...

Moses was a superstar scorer though. Quite unconventional, but still...

Stalwart wrote:

Owly wrote:

euroleague wrote:Isiah was top 5 in MVP and multiple all-nba 1st teams. I don't think he belongs on this list. Unseld, with an MVP, as well..

89 and '90 Thomas wasn't anywhere near MVP and was last all-NBA in '87 (would have eked in as the last member of the 3rd team in '88 had it existed but that's a different implied percentile in a 23 team league). And the list is surely relating "in that year" or else it would not feature Leonard.

Regardless, if you're just talking at some point in their career Billups came fifth with a much better vote share (Thomas's "top 5" was 5th)
Leonard has been second and third.
Parker has a 5th with a better vote share.
Williams has a 5th place with marginally better vote share ...
Whether the list is accurately named or not, by that criteria he fits fairly neatly with that group.

Isiah Thomas was focused on being a leader rather than putting up raw numbers for the Bad Boy Pistons. Its not a coincidence that his teammates all praise him as the leader and best player. Its not a coincidence that the fans and players from that era considered Isiah to be the next superstar after Bird, Magic, and MJ.

Not sure how this relates to my post.

Steph Curry
Dirk Nowitzki
Duncan

Stalwart wrote:

Owly wrote:

euroleague wrote:Isiah was top 5 in MVP and multiple all-nba 1st teams. I don't think he belongs on this list. Unseld, with an MVP, as well..

89 and '90 Thomas wasn't anywhere near MVP and was last all-NBA in '87 (would have eked in as the last member of the 3rd team in '88 had it existed but that's a different implied percentile in a 23 team league). And the list is surely relating "in that year" or else it would not feature Leonard.

Regardless, if you're just talking at some point in their career Billups came fifth with a much better vote share (Thomas's "top 5" was 5th)
Leonard has been second and third.
Parker has a 5th with a better vote share.
Williams has a 5th place with marginally better vote share ...
Whether the list is accurately named or not, by that criteria he fits fairly neatly with that group.

Isiah Thomas was focused on being a leader rather than putting up raw numbers for the Bad Boy Pistons. Its not a coincidence that his teammates all praise him as the leader and best player. Its not a coincidence that the fans and players from that era considered Isiah to be the next superstar after Bird, Magic, and MJ.

Lmao the double standards

70sFan wrote:

Jaivl wrote:"wouldn't be seen as"? Everything that isn't a superstar scorer.

That is, Russell, Duncan, Garnett, late Wilt, Reed, Frazier, Walton, Moses Malone...

Moses was a superstar scorer though. Quite unconventional, but still...

But, you see, he doesn't have the SWISH on his shot or the ZING on his handles. He's a boring boring rebounder.

Owly wrote:

Stalwart wrote:

Owly wrote:89 and '90 Thomas wasn't anywhere near MVP and was last all-NBA in '87 (would have eked in as the last member of the 3rd team in '88 had it existed but that's a different implied percentile in a 23 team league). And the list is surely relating "in that year" or else it would not feature Leonard.

Regardless, if you're just talking at some point in their career Billups came fifth with a much better vote share (Thomas's "top 5" was 5th)
Leonard has been second and third.
Parker has a 5th with a better vote share.
Williams has a 5th place with marginally better vote share ...
Whether the list is accurately named or not, by that criteria he fits fairly neatly with that group.

Isiah Thomas was focused on being a leader rather than putting up raw numbers for the Bad Boy Pistons. Its not a coincidence that his teammates all praise him as the leader and best player. Its not a coincidence that the fans and players from that era considered Isiah to be the next superstar after Bird, Magic, and MJ.

Not sure how this relates to my post.

I feel like its pretty obvious...

Stalwart wrote:

Owly wrote:

Stalwart wrote:
Isiah Thomas was focused on being a leader rather than putting up raw numbers for the Bad Boy Pistons. Its not a coincidence that his teammates all praise him as the leader and best player. Its not a coincidence that the fans and players from that era considered Isiah to be the next superstar after Bird, Magic, and MJ.

Not sure how this relates to my post.

I feel like its pretty obvious...

If I had to guess it's moving it on from accolades in the year of titles or at peak to a general level of play in and imply that despite not being near the elite by numbers or accolades in the title year (though "that era" and invoking Bird [injured and then post prime] suggests your not talking titles years and you later speak of "mid to late 80s").

But
1) that wasn't the debate that was occurring. Someone thought that Thomas was in another league due to a 5th place MVP finish (and 3 first team all NBAs) and mentioned Unseld had an MVP too. I noted that he ranks low in the group in terms of best annual MVP shares (more gently than that). That was the argument. If you need a general Thomas thread suggest you start one.

2) Unless you've got any new compelling evidence/stuff, invoking MJ, Bird and Magic for a guy who never finished as high as 4th on the MVP ballot seems, prima facie absurd, so I'll be unlikely to engage further (especially, per the above, here). Fwiw, assertions as to what "all" teammates do, and "fans and players from that era" do without any supporting evidence ... do what you want debating it ... for me "what people thought" (with some greater credibility for scouts/professionals willing to put their name to stuff and no likely ulterior motives) is pretty weak (and very indirect), as evidence goes for assessing player quality but you're not even supporting the assertions with evidence.

Stalwart wrote:

70sFan wrote:

Stalwart wrote:
Isiah Thomas was focused on being a leader rather than putting up raw numbers for the Bad Boy Pistons. Its not a coincidence that his teammates all praise him as the leader and best player. Its not a coincidence that the fans and players from that era considered Isiah to be the next superstar after Bird, Magic, and MJ.

Thomas teammates opinions about him weren't nearly as one sided as you described. It's also not true that Thomas was seen as the next superstar after big three. In fact, it's completely reinterpretative to what actually happen during Pistons title years.

Who would you say was the face of the league after the Big 3 in the mid to late 80s?

Here are the guys other than Bird, Magic, and MJ who were top 5 in MVP voting from 86-90:

In 86 Nique, Hakeem, Kareem
In 87 McHale, Nique
In 88 Barley Drexler
In 89 K.Malone, Ewing, Hakeem
In 90, Barkley, K.Malone, Ewing

So, by this very simplistic measure, probably Nique, Hakeem, Barkley, Karl Malone, and Ewing

Stalwart wrote:

70sFan wrote:

Stalwart wrote:
Isiah Thomas was focused on being a leader rather than putting up raw numbers for the Bad Boy Pistons. Its not a coincidence that his teammates all praise him as the leader and best player. Its not a coincidence that the fans and players from that era considered Isiah to be the next superstar after Bird, Magic, and MJ.

Thomas teammates opinions about him weren't nearly as one sided as you described. It's also not true that Thomas was seen as the next superstar after big three. In fact, it's completely reinterpretative to what actually happen during Pistons title years.

Who would you say was the face of the league after the Big 3 in the mid to late 80s?

Probably Barkley or Hakeem. Nique has a case as well, he was extremely popular - though I don't think he was as good as Thomas to be honest.

I'd like to say Bill Laimbeer; but he said face rather than mug shot.

Owly wrote:

euroleague wrote:Isiah was top 5 in MVP and multiple all-nba 1st teams. I don't think he belongs on this list. Unseld, with an MVP, as well..

89 and '90 Thomas wasn't anywhere near MVP and was last all-NBA in '87 (would have eked in as the last member of the 3rd team in '88 had it existed but that's a different implied percentile in a 23 team league). And the list is surely relating "in that year" or else it would not feature Leonard.

Regardless, if you're just talking at some point in their career Billups came fifth with a much better vote share (Thomas's "top 5" was 5th)
Leonard has been second and third.
Parker has a 5th with a better vote share.
Williams has a 5th place with marginally better vote share ...
Whether the list is accurately named or not, by that criteria he fits fairly neatly with that group.

Billups was never first team all-nba. Nor were any of those others. Isiah was 3x. Isiah was also top 5 on a terrible team… those players were carried.

You can’t isolate only one criteria when it’s used as a combination. Why not try naming someone with both? Ah, because they’re all superstars.

Furthermore, MVP involves being popular with media. Everyone hated the Pistons. Celtics, Bulls, Lakers, etc. had beat-writers and announcers voting for MVP and all-nba.

IT was a far better candidate for MVP in 88, 89… but, too hated by the media.