Let's re-imagine scottie pippen's career if he doesn't play with michael jordan

[Gibson22]

First of all, I'm not one of those guys that think that jordan made pippen and that pip wouldn't be rated if he didn't play alongside him. In fact, pip was drafted 5 despite being a kid from a really poor family of 12 brothers from arkansas, and starting his college career at central arkansas as more of a team manager than a basketball player. Pip was a borderline freak athlete and any team could have used his defense and his ability to be a ball handler at 6'7", and his ability to get to the rim. Still, he obviously was very lucky to get drafted alongside michael jordan and in a great team like the chicago bulls and win 6 rings as the #2 guy, because it's tough to see him being a good enough first offensive option, as he lacked the scoring skills (his rts% was +0,5% and even in his best seasons it was around +2, not elite by any means), because he was a gifted athlete but he was a below average shooter and didn't possess like flashy handles or postup skills or things of that nature.

So, let's try to reimagine an average career as far situation and results for him, and then you tell me if it was a realistic hypothetical and where would you rank someone who had this career.

So, scottie gets drafted by the randon-below-average-team-with-no-stars. He has a solid rookie year but he doesn't win roty. He takes a leap the next year but he doesn't make the All star team, but he makes the playoff having a great second half of the season. He loses in the first round. From the next year on he estabilishes himself as a perennial all star, as he wins a slum dunk contest, and the fans love his dunks and his ability to be a ball handler at 6'7". His team is good but never a true contender, they usually lose in the second round, but make if to the conference finals twice, one of those two times they lose 4-3 and they get robbed by the refs in game 7.
After 8 years in "random team" he decides to join clyde drexler in portland where they play 3,5 years together, they manage to win a ring in their second season, after reaching the WCF the first year. Clyde wins the fmvp and averages the most points but the consensus is that pippen was the more impactful player. This is debated through the years. The third year the team declines, and they lose 4-1 in the second round. The team has controversies and injuries, and the next year is a disaster and they have a .400 record, the team decides to trade pip. He plays 4,5 seasons for the next team, where he isn't a star anymore but he's really appreciated for his ability to still be an highly impactful role player with his defense and ability to be a secondary ball handler, and still gets you 15 ppg. They always make the playoffs and win a couple playoff series.
Troughout his career, what stands out is his scalability as a player who fits everywhere, is an instant fit in any team. He's considered the top perimeter defender, and in some seasons he gets debated as a top 5 player, but for like 8 seasons he's viewed as a borderline top 10 player. He never gets seen as one of the guys really in contention for best player in the world. All in all this is how he's seen. Amazing defender, very good playmaker at 6'7, instant fit in any team, not good enough to be the guy, but some guys argue that he could have been the guy if he had a better team around him. Causes a bit of controversy, sometimes chokes or doesn't show big personality. He's acknowledged as a great player but most people don't care about him, in favor of flashier games and personalities. 20-30 years down the line he's often brought up as a forgotten, underrated player. He has tried his hand at basketball executive and head coach for wnba teams but didn't' have great success.
These are his accomplishments:
-1x ring
-10X all star
- 4x all nba first team, 4x all nba second team, 1x all nba third team
-1x dpoy
- 7x all defensive first team, 4x all defensive second team
- 2x olympic gold medals, both time top 3 performer for team usa

His numbers: peak season: 26/6/6 on +2 rts, his raw stats have a 6 year prime that looks like this: 24/7/6, he averaged 20/8/6 alongside drexler, and he averages 14/5/5 in the last team of his career. His career averages are about 20/6.5/5,5, with incredible stocks numbers.

Where is this player ranked all time? Who this career reminds you of? Who are the worst players that you could name that had a better career than this? Where would you rank this player? Is this realistic for pip?

[Jaivl]

Magic is the casual GOAT // Jordan lacks a WINNER'S MENTALITY and drops to casual top10ish // Kobe gets 11 rondoassists per game

Pippen? ehhhh, probably doesn't suffer much in the eyes of fans actually; healthier, defense-leaning Paul George is still a top 50 guy.

[Stalwart]

Unless he hooks up with another Batman he can win titles with he most likely tops out at top 100.

[Ein Sof]

Unless he hooks up with another Batman he can win titles with he most likely tops out at top 100.

Just wanna let you know you accidentally pressed "0" twice

[henshao]

without any deeper thought on it, BatPippen reminds me of a luckier Grant Hill

[Matt15]

Pippen would still be considered a top 50 player all-time. Jordan would be borderline top 10 unless he gets another very good second option.

[wojoaderge]

His halfcourt scoring was not good enough

[Jaivl]

His halfcourt scoring was not good enough

Good enough for what? You're very probably not winning a ring with Pippen as your best scorer, I think that much is clear. But it's very, very far from an unsalvageable handicap.

Like, I don't know, guys like Andre Iguodala or Josh Smith have been the top scorers in playoff teams. Guys like Marc Gasol or Jason Kidd have been the top scorers in very strong playoff teams.

[JordansBulls]

Pippen became great due to playing with Jordan, he even said so himself.

Source: GoogleBooks

Pippen, unlike other Bulls who usually kept their distance from Jordan, tried to learn all he could from Jordan in practice. In turn, Jordan worked with Pippen on his moves, jump shot, and defense and taught him mental toughness.

Pippen relates on how his game improved - Link

“He was very competitive, so he went at me and that helped me learn,” said Pippen. “You continue to compete against the very best every day, and you will get better, or you’ll be embarrassed.”

“I went to a small school, so I had to be a jack of all trades and master a few,” said Pippen. “Defense was one thing I was really able to work at and get better.

“A lot of my instincts came from guarding Michael all the time in practice,” he added. “I had four other guys on my team, but I had schemes that I would throw out there depending on what he did. I’d say, ‘If I make Michael do this, then you go trap him.’ There were things I tried to do on defense to trigger him into a
mistake. He was a great player, and if you couldn’t try it on him in practice, there was nowhere else to try it.”

Pippen realized himself that going against MJ is what made him better.


http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=aw-krausejordan090909

“Michael was great at identifying things,” Krause said. “Would Pippen have been great someplace else? Michael absolutely killed Scottie in practice every day for his first two years. Mike just tore Pip up. He made Pip learn how to compete and forced him into playing hard. Had there not been someone to challenge Scottie like that, I’m not sure what would’ve happened to him.”

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http://www.nba.com/bulls/news/asksam_091030.html

Sam: I know there's that "he's a rookie thing," though I thought more with Rose was the way he drove and then was so quick he could avoid the contact. I think with him he was more accustomed to having just come out of playing in the Chicago playgrounds where you aren't going to get calls going to the basket. I remember watching Jordan not long after Pippen joined the Bulls showing Pippen how to drive and go into a defender and then finish your shot. Wade was a more mature player having gone to college several years, and Anthony played in the post and inside a lot. That's one area for Rose for improve. He's a quick study and I think you'll see him taking the hit since he's strong and can do it and drawing more calls this season.


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http://www.nba.com/bulls/news/asksam_091023.html

Would you still consider pippen to be included on the 50 greatest players list? I know that he pioneered/changed the way that his position was played creating more of a point-forward spot, which paved the way for players like melo and lebron. But he never did accomplish anything by himself, and proved in Portland that he couldn't carry a team.

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Sam: You can't judge with Portland given he was well past his athletic prime and had lost basically all his explosiveness and was operating on guile. He was a much smarter player than ever given credit for, though many still question his top 50 inclusion. The notion is if not for Jordan, there would be no chance. And I tend to agree. If he were picked by the Clippers at No. 4 in that draft as he should have been, he would not have been a top 50 player because he couldn't create that much for himself. But he wasn't and he was the No. 2 part of six championships and was a multiple defensive player and gold medalist on the Dream Team. So he deserves the recognition and will be inducted into the Hall of Fame as a result. Most everyone who has succeeded has benefitted from good timing on occasion. Pippen did as well, but he also made the most of it.
[/quote]
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http://www.nba.com/bulls/news/ask-sam-sam-smith-opens-his-mailbag-033012.html

Sam: I remember Jordan helping Pippen with this. In Pippen’s first several seasons, he rarely got calls on drives. Jordan used to show him — we were permitted to watch practice then — how to drive into contact and then react to the contact. Pippen used to practice it all the time with Jordan showing him.

[Gibson22]

Pippen became great due to playing with Jordan, he even said so himself.

Source: GoogleBooks

Pippen, unlike other Bulls who usually kept their distance from Jordan, tried to learn all he could from Jordan in practice. In turn, Jordan worked with Pippen on his moves, jump shot, and defense and taught him mental toughness.

Pippen relates on how his game improved - Link

“He was very competitive, so he went at me and that helped me learn,” said Pippen. “You continue to compete against the very best every day, and you will get better, or you’ll be embarrassed.”

“I went to a small school, so I had to be a jack of all trades and master a few,” said Pippen. “Defense was one thing I was really able to work at and get better.

“A lot of my instincts came from guarding Michael all the time in practice,” he added. “I had four other guys on my team, but I had schemes that I would throw out there depending on what he did. I’d say, ‘If I make Michael do this, then you go trap him.’ There were things I tried to do on defense to trigger him into a
mistake. He was a great player, and if you couldn’t try it on him in practice, there was nowhere else to try it.”

Pippen realized himself that going against MJ is what made him better.


http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=aw-krausejordan090909

“Michael was great at identifying things,” Krause said. “Would Pippen have been great someplace else? Michael absolutely killed Scottie in practice every day for his first two years. Mike just tore Pip up. He made Pip learn how to compete and forced him into playing hard. Had there not been someone to challenge Scottie like that, I’m not sure what would’ve happened to him.”

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.nba.com/bulls/news/asksam_091030.html

Sam: I know there's that "he's a rookie thing," though I thought more with Rose was the way he drove and then was so quick he could avoid the contact. I think with him he was more accustomed to having just come out of playing in the Chicago playgrounds where you aren't going to get calls going to the basket. I remember watching Jordan not long after Pippen joined the Bulls showing Pippen how to drive and go into a defender and then finish your shot. Wade was a more mature player having gone to college several years, and Anthony played in the post and inside a lot. That's one area for Rose for improve. He's a quick study and I think you'll see him taking the hit since he's strong and can do it and drawing more calls this season.


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http://www.nba.com/bulls/news/asksam_091023.html

Would you still consider pippen to be included on the 50 greatest players list? I know that he pioneered/changed the way that his position was played creating more of a point-forward spot, which paved the way for players like melo and lebron. But he never did accomplish anything by himself, and proved in Portland that he couldn't carry a team.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sam: You can't judge with Portland given he was well past his athletic prime and had lost basically all his explosiveness and was operating on guile. He was a much smarter player than ever given credit for, though many still question his top 50 inclusion. The notion is if not for Jordan, there would be no chance. And I tend to agree. If he were picked by the Clippers at No. 4 in that draft as he should have been, he would not have been a top 50 player because he couldn't create that much for himself. But he wasn't and he was the No. 2 part of six championships and was a multiple defensive player and gold medalist on the Dream Team. So he deserves the recognition and will be inducted into the Hall of Fame as a result. Most everyone who has succeeded has benefitted from good timing on occasion. Pippen did as well, but he also made the most of it.

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http://www.nba.com/bulls/news/ask-sam-sam-smith-opens-his-mailbag-033012.html

Sam: I remember Jordan helping Pippen with this. In Pippen’s first several seasons, he rarely got calls on drives. Jordan used to show him — we were permitted to watch practice then — how to drive into contact and then react to the contact. Pippen used to practice it all the time with Jordan showing him.

[/quote]


I hate this type of anecdotical, that guy said type of thinking. Pippen was always going to be good because he was a freak athlete, and he could handle the ball at 6'7". Ask him now if he still thinks it that way.

[penbeast0]

Unless he hooks up with another Batman he can win titles with he most likely tops out at top 100.

How about if he hooked up with a pure scorer who didn't do anything else (say a Montrezl Harrell or Tobias Harris type) and some excellent defender/3 point shooter role players? He'd be the batman, Trez the Robin, and in the world pre spamming 3's, you'd have a good shotblocking center who didn't score much (Mutombo type) and some good guards who aren't stars. Add a HOF coach and a deep bench, mix in a weak competitive year, just a dash of luck, and presto a ring as first option.

[falcolombardi]

Related i am watching 94 pippen footage right now since i am considering him for later on the peaks project

And i think people dont realize how much of his defensive motor pippen kept in spite of having to lead the offense too

He is a brutal (brutal as in good) offensive rebounder, fast break player, throws some brilliant assists and a monster help defender in the perimeter AND the rim while taking tough 1vs1 assigments defensively and defending multiple positions well

The more i watch, the more impressed i am how much he can be the best player in a game before even scoring a basket and -sometimes- he could score lots of baskets too

I think people dont realize how much of a legit contender (for 1994 relative weakness at the top teams) the pippen bulls were

[An Unbiased Fan]

He would have a long career, but no HOF

MJ's legacy would take a hit too

[Stalwart]

Unless he hooks up with another Batman he can win titles with he most likely tops out at top 100.

How about if he hooked up with a pure scorer who didn't do anything else (say a Montrezl Harrell or Tobias Harris type) and some excellent defender/3 point shooter role players? He'd be the batman, Trez the Robin, and in the world pre spamming 3's, you'd have a good shotblocking center who didn't score much (Mutombo type) and some good guards who aren't stars. Add a HOF coach and a deep bench, mix in a weak competitive year, just a dash of luck, and presto a ring as first option.

Sure its possible Scottie would win a ring as the best player on his own team but the chances are slim. For one he probably doesn't becaome as good as he did without playing with Jordan. And even if he did become that good there is je mental side of being a Batman that Scottie never truly exhibited. He used to get bullied pretty bad by the Pistons and Knicks. He eventually toughened up but it took some years. In the 94 playoffs at the most crucial junction of the season, indeed his career, what does Scottie do? He pulled himself out of the game in protest thereby destroying his reputation as the leader amongst his own teammates. Several players have gone on record about how although they forgave him they still lost respect for him in that moment and never looked at him quite the same.

So even though I can imagine scenerios and situation where Scottie could succeed as the best player I think he lacks intangibles like leadership, mental toughness, self motivation, ability to handle pressure, integrity, ect. That would hold him back from becoming an ATG, Top 50 player wothout someone like Jordan around.

[homecourtloss]

Related i am watching 94 pippen footage right now since i am considering him for later on the peaks project

And i think people dont realize how much of his defensive motor pippen kept in spite of having to lead the offense too

He is a brutal (brutal as in good) offensive rebounder, fast break player, throws some brilliant assists and a monster help defender in the perimeter AND the rim while taking tough 1vs1 assigments defensively and defending multiple positions well

The more i watch, the more impressed i am how much he can be the best player in a game before even scoring a basket and -sometimes- he could score lots of baskets too

I think people dont realize how much of a legit contender (for 1994 relative weakness at the top teams) the pippen bulls were

Also led the Bulls to a +8.5 rORtg series vs. an ATG defense. The Bulls outscored the Knicks overall and were controversial call away from going up 3-2. The Pacers series and Finals would be 50-50, I think.

Now imagine instead of Pete Myers and his 2,000 minutes there were a decent scorer, nothing too great. Bulls would have a good chance at a title and 60+ wins. Actually, if he had 1996 version of Kukoc—that might have been enough.

[Stalwart]

Related i am watching 94 pippen footage right now since i am considering him for later on the peaks project

And i think people dont realize how much of his defensive motor pippen kept in spite of having to lead the offense too

He is a brutal (brutal as in good) offensive rebounder, fast break player, throws some brilliant assists and a monster help defender in the perimeter AND the rim while taking tough 1vs1 assigments defensively and defending multiple positions well

The more i watch, the more impressed i am how much he can be the best player in a game before even scoring a basket and -sometimes- he could score lots of baskets too

I think people dont realize how much of a legit contender (for 1994 relative weakness at the top teams) the pippen bulls were

Also led the Bulls to a +8.5 rORtg series vs. an ATG defense. The Bulls outscored the Knicks overall and were controversial call away from going up 3-2. The Pacers series and Finals would be 50-50, I think.

Now imagine instead of Pete Myers and his 2,000 minutes there were a decent scorer, nothing too great. Bulls would have a good chance at a title and 60+ wins. Actually, if he had 1996 version of Kukoc—that might have been enough.

You should also imagine what that Bulls team would look like without a high level group of battle tested, championship level, high IQ veteran role players who all knew their assignments within the system who also weren't highly motivated to prove themselves without Jordan. It would probably look like the 95 Bulls.

[falcolombardi]

Related i am watching 94 pippen footage right now since i am considering him for later on the peaks project

And i think people dont realize how much of his defensive motor pippen kept in spite of having to lead the offense too

He is a brutal (brutal as in good) offensive rebounder, fast break player, throws some brilliant assists and a monster help defender in the perimeter AND the rim while taking tough 1vs1 assigments defensively and defending multiple positions well

The more i watch, the more impressed i am how much he can be the best player in a game before even scoring a basket and -sometimes- he could score lots of baskets too

I think people dont realize how much of a legit contender (for 1994 relative weakness at the top teams) the pippen bulls were

Also led the Bulls to a +8.5 rORtg series vs. an ATG defense. The Bulls outscored the Knicks overall and were controversial call away from going up 3-2. The Pacers series and Finals would be 50-50, I think.

Now imagine instead of Pete Myers and his 2,000 minutes there were a decent scorer, nothing too great. Bulls would have a good chance at a title and 60+ wins. Actually, if he had 1996 version of Kukoc—that might have been enough.

And even after losing horace grant they still kept above water in 95, it was actually a legit great supporting cast that added jordan + rodman (minus grant)

[falcolombardi]

Related i am watching 94 pippen footage right now since i am considering him for later on the peaks project

And i think people dont realize how much of his defensive motor pippen kept in spite of having to lead the offense too

He is a brutal (brutal as in good) offensive rebounder, fast break player, throws some brilliant assists and a monster help defender in the perimeter AND the rim while taking tough 1vs1 assigments defensively and defending multiple positions well

The more i watch, the more impressed i am how much he can be the best player in a game before even scoring a basket and -sometimes- he could score lots of baskets too

I think people dont realize how much of a legit contender (for 1994 relative weakness at the top teams) the pippen bulls were

Also led the Bulls to a +8.5 rORtg series vs. an ATG defense. The Bulls outscored the Knicks overall and were controversial call away from going up 3-2. The Pacers series and Finals would be 50-50, I think.

Now imagine instead of Pete Myers and his 2,000 minutes there were a decent scorer, nothing too great. Bulls would have a good chance at a title and 60+ wins. Actually, if he had 1996 version of Kukoc—that might have been enough.

You should also imagine what that Bulls team would look like without a high level group of battle tested, championship level, high IQ veteran role players who all knew their assignments within the system who also weren't highly motivated to prove themselves without Jordan. It would probably look like the 95 Bulls.

The 95 bulls were an above average team even after losing horace grant, their second best player in 94

[Stalwart]

Also led the Bulls to a +8.5 rORtg series vs. an ATG defense. The Bulls outscored the Knicks overall and were controversial call away from going up 3-2. The Pacers series and Finals would be 50-50, I think.

Now imagine instead of Pete Myers and his 2,000 minutes there were a decent scorer, nothing too great. Bulls would have a good chance at a title and 60+ wins. Actually, if he had 1996 version of Kukoc—that might have been enough.

You should also imagine what that Bulls team would look like without a high level group of battle tested, championship level, high IQ veteran role players who all knew their assignments within the system who also weren't highly motivated to prove themselves without Jordan. It would probably look like the 95 Bulls.

The 95 bulls were an above average team even after losing horace grant, their second best player in 94

Sure but they werent a championship caliber team

[tsherkin]

The 95 bulls were an above average team even after losing horace grant, their second best player in 94

Kukoc stepped in nicely. The pulled-in line helped Steve Kerr lead the league in 3P%. They added Ron Harper. Let's not pretend like they JUST lost Ho, they also had some other developments.