RealGM

How would you rank these players overall from 1-4 during this 3 year span?

1. Duncan- 2 titles, and 3 great playoff runs
2. Nash- 2 mvps, was the best offensive player in the league during this stretch and was good/great every year in the playoffs
3. Dirk- An mvp, led 67 win team, made a finals but underperformed in the playoffs 2/3 years
4. KG- Still prime KG, but missed the playoffs every year. Hard to place him over the others.

05
Garnett
Duncan
Nowitzki
Nash

06
Nowitzki
Garnett
Nash
Duncan

07
Duncan
Nowitzki
Nash
Garnett

Overall
Nowitzki
Garnett
Duncan
Nash

On the one hand, I think Dirk probably should have won at least 2 MVPs during that span. On the other hand, Duncan actually did win 2 titles over that span. So it's tough!

I guess probably it has to be Duncan, Dirk, Nash, Garnett.

No-more-rings wrote:1. Duncan- 2 titles, and 3 great playoff runs
2. Nash- 2 mvps, was the best offensive player in the league during this stretch and was good/great every year in the playoffs
3. Dirk- An mvp, led 67 win team, made a finals but underperformed in the playoffs 2/3 years
4. KG- Still prime KG, but missed the playoffs every year. Hard to place him over the others.

This seems good to me. You can't just sweep the playoffs under the rug in these sorts of comparisons.

Cavsfansince84 wrote:

No-more-rings wrote:1. Duncan- 2 titles, and 3 great playoff runs
2. Nash- 2 mvps, was the best offensive player in the league during this stretch and was good/great every year in the playoffs
3. Dirk- An mvp, led 67 win team, made a finals but underperformed in the playoffs 2/3 years
4. KG- Still prime KG, but missed the playoffs every year. Hard to place him over the others.

This seems good to me. You can't just sweep the playoffs under the rug in these sorts of comparisons.

Agree, which is why placing Nash above Dirk is interesting when Nowitzki performed much better in the playoffs during 05-07...

Nash 05-07 PO: 22.2 PER | .602 TS% | 6.1 WS | .160 WS/48 | 4.4 BPM | 2.9 VORP | 118 ORtg | 115 DRtg
Dirk 05-07 PO: 23.9 PER | .556 TS% | 7.2 WS | .196 WS/48 | 6.7 BPM | 3.9 VORP | 118 ORtg | 107 DRtg

Looks like Dirk also had a pretty solid case during the 05-07 regular seasons too...

Nash 05-7 RS: 23.0 PER | .631 TS% | 35.8 WS | .214 WS/48 | 5.2 BPM | 14.6 VORP | 123 ORtg | 110 DRtg
Dirk 05-7 RS: 27.2 PER | .590 TS% | 49.7 WS | .267 WS/48 | 7.9 BPM | 22.4 VORP | 121 ORTg | 102 DRtg

SickMother wrote:

Cavsfansince84 wrote:

No-more-rings wrote:1. Duncan- 2 titles, and 3 great playoff runs
2. Nash- 2 mvps, was the best offensive player in the league during this stretch and was good/great every year in the playoffs
3. Dirk- An mvp, led 67 win team, made a finals but underperformed in the playoffs 2/3 years
4. KG- Still prime KG, but missed the playoffs every year. Hard to place him over the others.

This seems good to me. You can't just sweep the playoffs under the rug in these sorts of comparisons.

Agree, which is why placing Nash above Dirk is interesting when Nowitzki performed much better in the playoffs during 05-07...

Nash 05-07 PO: 22.2 PER | .602 TS% | 6.1 WS | .160 WS/48 | 4.4 BPM | 2.9 VORP | 118 ORtg | 115 DRtg
Dirk 05-07 PO: 23.9 PER | .556 TS% | 7.2 WS | .196 WS/48 | 6.7 BPM | 3.9 VORP | 118 ORtg | 107 DRtg

Looks like Dirk also had a pretty solid case during the 05-07 regular seasons too...

Nash 05-7 RS: 23.0 PER | .631 TS% | 35.8 WS | .214 WS/48 | 5.2 BPM | 14.6 VORP | 123 ORtg | 110 DRtg
Dirk 05-7 RS: 27.2 PER | .590 TS% | 49.7 WS | .267 WS/48 | 7.9 BPM | 22.4 VORP | 121 ORTg | 102 DRtg

Nash is underrated by stats like PER and BPM, probably more so than any superstar ever aside from Russell.

No-more-rings wrote:

SickMother wrote:

Cavsfansince84 wrote:
This seems good to me. You can't just sweep the playoffs under the rug in these sorts of comparisons.

Agree, which is why placing Nash above Dirk is interesting when Nowitzki performed much better in the playoffs during 05-07...

Nash 05-07 PO: 22.2 PER | .602 TS% | 6.1 WS | .160 WS/48 | 4.4 BPM | 2.9 VORP | 118 ORtg | 115 DRtg
Dirk 05-07 PO: 23.9 PER | .556 TS% | 7.2 WS | .196 WS/48 | 6.7 BPM | 3.9 VORP | 118 ORtg | 107 DRtg

Looks like Dirk also had a pretty solid case during the 05-07 regular seasons too...

Nash 05-7 RS: 23.0 PER | .631 TS% | 35.8 WS | .214 WS/48 | 5.2 BPM | 14.6 VORP | 123 ORtg | 110 DRtg
Dirk 05-7 RS: 27.2 PER | .590 TS% | 49.7 WS | .267 WS/48 | 7.9 BPM | 22.4 VORP | 121 ORTg | 102 DRtg

Nash is underrated by stats like PER and BPM, probably more so than any superstar ever aside from Russell.

What about DRtg? Is that overstating how detrimental Nash's defense was too?

SickMother wrote:

No-more-rings wrote:

SickMother wrote:
Agree, which is why placing Nash above Dirk is interesting when Nowitzki performed much better in the playoffs during 05-07...

Nash 05-07 PO: 22.2 PER | .602 TS% | 6.1 WS | .160 WS/48 | 4.4 BPM | 2.9 VORP | 118 ORtg | 115 DRtg
Dirk 05-07 PO: 23.9 PER | .556 TS% | 7.2 WS | .196 WS/48 | 6.7 BPM | 3.9 VORP | 118 ORtg | 107 DRtg

Looks like Dirk also had a pretty solid case during the 05-07 regular seasons too...

Nash 05-7 RS: 23.0 PER | .631 TS% | 35.8 WS | .214 WS/48 | 5.2 BPM | 14.6 VORP | 123 ORtg | 110 DRtg
Dirk 05-7 RS: 27.2 PER | .590 TS% | 49.7 WS | .267 WS/48 | 7.9 BPM | 22.4 VORP | 121 ORTg | 102 DRtg

Nash is underrated by stats like PER and BPM, probably more so than any superstar ever aside from Russell.

What about DRtg? Is that overstating how detrimental Nash's defense was too?

Suns defenses were not even that bad and hovered around average

SickMother wrote:
Agree, which is why placing Nash above Dirk is interesting when Nowitzki performed much better in the playoffs during 05-07...

Nash 05-07 PO: 22.2 PER | .602 TS% | 6.1 WS | .160 WS/48 | 4.4 BPM | 2.9 VORP | 118 ORtg | 115 DRtg
Dirk 05-07 PO: 23.9 PER | .556 TS% | 7.2 WS | .196 WS/48 | 6.7 BPM | 3.9 VORP | 118 ORtg | 107 DRtg

Looks like Dirk also had a pretty solid case during the 05-07 regular seasons too...

Nash 05-7 RS: 23.0 PER | .631 TS% | 35.8 WS | .214 WS/48 | 5.2 BPM | 14.6 VORP | 123 ORtg | 110 DRtg
Dirk 05-7 RS: 27.2 PER | .590 TS% | 49.7 WS | .267 WS/48 | 7.9 BPM | 22.4 VORP | 121 ORTg | 102 DRtg

I see a case for Dirk over Nash as well. I see it as clearly Duncan then Nash or Dirk followed by KG.

SickMother wrote:

No-more-rings wrote:

SickMother wrote:Agree, which is why placing Nash above Dirk is interesting when Nowitzki performed much better in the playoffs during 05-07...

Nash 05-07 PO: 22.2 PER | .602 TS% | 6.1 WS | .160 WS/48 | 4.4 BPM | 2.9 VORP | 118 ORtg | 115 DRtg
Dirk 05-07 PO: 23.9 PER | .556 TS% | 7.2 WS | .196 WS/48 | 6.7 BPM | 3.9 VORP | 118 ORtg | 107 DRtg

Looks like Dirk also had a pretty solid case during the 05-07 regular seasons too...

Nash 05-7 RS: 23.0 PER | .631 TS% | 35.8 WS | .214 WS/48 | 5.2 BPM | 14.6 VORP | 123 ORtg | 110 DRtg
Dirk 05-7 RS: 27.2 PER | .590 TS% | 49.7 WS | .267 WS/48 | 7.9 BPM | 22.4 VORP | 121 ORTg | 102 DRtg

Nash is underrated by stats like PER and BPM, probably more so than any superstar ever aside from Russell.

What about DRtg? Is that overstating how detrimental Nash's defense was too?

Yes. Basketball-reference’s player specific Ortg and Drtg is literally just another box score metric. https://www.basketball-reference.com/about/ratings.html

Nash’s on-court defensive rating during that period was something like two points worse than Dirk’s, and even that in itself is not saying too much.

falcolombardi wrote:

SickMother wrote:

No-more-rings wrote:
Nash is underrated by stats like PER and BPM, probably more so than any superstar ever aside from Russell.

What about DRtg? Is that overstating how detrimental Nash's defense was too?

Suns defenses were not even that bad and hovered around average

Suns defenses were 17th, 16th and 13th by DRtg. Mavs defenses were 9th, 11th, 3rd by DRtg so DAL was quite a bit better cumulatively. Dirk being about 8 pts better per 100 possessions on defense sounds about right in that context.

Suns offenses were by 1st, 2nd, 1st by ORtg. Mavs offenses were 4th, 1st, 2nd by ORtg, so a very slight edge to PHO. About 2 pts per 100 possessions better for Nash.

For me (& the available composite stats) it looks like Dirk's edge on defense is larger than Nash's edge on offense.

SickMother wrote:

falcolombardi wrote:

SickMother wrote:
What about DRtg? Is that overstating how detrimental Nash's defense was too?

Suns defenses were not even that bad and hovered around average

Suns defenses were 17th, 16th and 13th by DRtg. Mavs defenses were 9th, 11th, 3rd by DRtg so DAL was quite a bit better cumulatively. Dirk being about 8 pts better per 100 possessions on defense sounds about right in that context.

Suns offenses were by 1st, 2nd, 1st by ORtg. Mavs offenses were 4th, 1st, 2nd by ORtg, so a very slight edge to PHO. About 2 pts per 100 possessions better for Nash.

For me (& the available composite stats) it looks like Dirk's edge on defense is larger than Nash's edge on offense.

Nash and dirk have way bigger influence in their team offenses than their team defenses

the 8 points number doesnt seem right, 8 points is what the difference between a league top 3 offense and bottom 3 defense usually is

SickMother wrote:

falcolombardi wrote:

SickMother wrote:
What about DRtg? Is that overstating how detrimental Nash's defense was too?

Suns defenses were not even that bad and hovered around average

Suns defenses were 17th, 16th and 13th by DRtg. Mavs defenses were 9th, 11th, 3rd by DRtg so DAL was quite a bit better cumulatively. Dirk being about 8 pts better per 100 possessions on defense sounds about right in that context.

Suns offenses were by 1st, 2nd, 1st by ORtg. Mavs offenses were 4th, 1st, 2nd by ORtg, so a very slight edge to PHO. About 2 pts per 100 possessions better for Nash.

For me (& the available composite stats) it looks like Dirk's edge on defense is larger than Nash's edge on offense.

When Dirk was on the court during that period the Mavericks played at a +8.5 net rating. When Nash was on the court during that period, the Suns played at a +9.8 rating. The Mavericks were slightly worse without Dirk than the Suns were without Nash, but Nash still has higher lift (+11.2 versus +10.8).

8 points better defensively, in addition to just being outright wrong, should be facially absurd, and it “sounding right” is a pretty huge warning sign that you do not know what these numbers are trying to approximate. Eight points was the defensive difference between the Hawks this year and the Warriors or Celtics.

I'll take any or all please. My general belief is that Duncan was just a better player than all of those other players and yes still in this time frame though Dirk is in the process of catching him. Then flip a coin with Dirk/Nash. These are clearly Nash's 3 best years so it gets him close.

For KG, its hard to evaluate this period because here is finally the small period of his career where his teammates really are terrible. Mostly his teammates are fine, even in Minnesota. But its hard to ignore the other 3 guys teams winning 60 games and the Wolves out of the playoffs, and its not like the Mavs post-Nash were loaded with talent. Dirk has one of the biggest carry jobs in NBA history during this stretch and nobody but me ever mentions it. But winning 67 games and 60 games and going to the Finals with that coach and that roster is just absurd. Absurd.

Duncan
Dirk
Nash
KG

I guess. If someone wants to move Nash ahead of Dirk because of MVP's, I get it. I think Dirk was still better, but I get it.

Duncan
Dirk
Nash
KG

AEnigma wrote:

SickMother wrote:

falcolombardi wrote:
Suns defenses were not even that bad and hovered around average

Suns defenses were 17th, 16th and 13th by DRtg. Mavs defenses were 9th, 11th, 3rd by DRtg so DAL was quite a bit better cumulatively. Dirk being about 8 pts better per 100 possessions on defense sounds about right in that context.

Suns offenses were by 1st, 2nd, 1st by ORtg. Mavs offenses were 4th, 1st, 2nd by ORtg, so a very slight edge to PHO. About 2 pts per 100 possessions better for Nash.

For me (& the available composite stats) it looks like Dirk's edge on defense is larger than Nash's edge on offense.

When Dirk was on the court during that period the Mavericks played at a +8.5 net rating. When Nash was on the court during that period, the Suns played at a +9.8 rating. The Mavericks were slightly worse without Dirk than the Suns were without Nash, but Nash still has higher lift (+11.2 versus +10.8).

8 points better defensively, in addition to just being outright wrong, should be facially absurd, and it “sounding right” is a pretty huge warning sign that you do not know what these numbers are trying to approximate. Eight points was the defensive difference between the Hawks this year and the Warriors or Celtics.

No matter how one wants to quantify it & to what degree that ends up being (what do you believe is a more reasonable approximation of their difference on defense?), what I believe to be Dirk's combination of better defense and playing way more minutes (8,929 vs 8,051) than Nash outweighs whatever advantage Nash may have on offense for me.

SickMother wrote:

AEnigma wrote:

SickMother wrote:
Suns defenses were 17th, 16th and 13th by DRtg. Mavs defenses were 9th, 11th, 3rd by DRtg so DAL was quite a bit better cumulatively. Dirk being about 8 pts better per 100 possessions on defense sounds about right in that context.

Suns offenses were by 1st, 2nd, 1st by ORtg. Mavs offenses were 4th, 1st, 2nd by ORtg, so a very slight edge to PHO. About 2 pts per 100 possessions better for Nash.

For me (& the available composite stats) it looks like Dirk's edge on defense is larger than Nash's edge on offense.

When Dirk was on the court during that period the Mavericks played at a +8.5 net rating. When Nash was on the court during that period, the Suns played at a +9.8 rating. The Mavericks were slightly worse without Dirk than the Suns were without Nash, but Nash still has higher lift (+11.2 versus +10.8).

8 points better defensively, in addition to just being outright wrong, should be facially absurd, and it “sounding right” is a pretty huge warning sign that you do not know what these numbers are trying to approximate. Eight points was the defensive difference between the Hawks this year and the Warriors or Celtics.

No matter how one wants to quantify it & to what degree that ends up being (what do you believe is a more reasonable approximation of their difference on defense?), what I believe to be Dirk's combination of better defense and playing way more minutes (8,929 vs 8,051) than Nash outweighs whatever advantage Nash may have on offense for me.

If you think Dirk's better overall, that's fair. My only issue was using things like PER and BPM when we know that's not a good way at all to measure Nash's impact.