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The cavs had the 4th best drtg in 06-07, despite not necessarily having the best defensive personnel. What's crazy to me is that despite having the 4th best drtg no cavs players received a single vote, not the selection, just a single point. All of a sudden lbj received a few point the next year despite the cavs having the 11th best drtg and he places 2nd in dpoy in 2009. What is up with the 4th best defense not receiving a single point for all defensive teams? I think he could have made it above kobe or hinrich if he was considered a guard, and above tayshaun prince (no argument with duncan or kg and bowen) as a wing.

Defensive awards are given on reputation instead of merit most of the time, mostly because seemingly nobody has an idea how to properly judge defense.

God no. Its his 1st season as a real positive but he's still just a passenger, not driving anything defensively that year. Also, you dont need elite talent to get strong results defensively if you're well coached and dont play too many liabilities. This is Mike Brown's 2nd year and you really see his coaching take hold at that end.

Damon Jones and Boobie were the only legit poor defenders in the rotation.

Good defender, but no. He wasn’t a top 6 perimeter defender which is more or less what it would take.

Could he have made the team if he went the Magic route and called himself a point guard? Maybe; guard voting is consistently weird (e.g. Kobe).

Is it surprising he did not receive a single vote despite guys like Chris Bosh and Elton Brand receiving votes at the forward position? Yeah.

Is it surprising he did not even come close to making the team when the next ranked forwards were Shane Battier, Shawn Marion, Metta Artest, Gerald Wallace, Josh Howard, Luol Deng, Andrei Kirilenko, and Josh Smith? No lol.

Yeah I don't disagree with you guys, just wanted to hear some toughts

Dutchball97 wrote:Defensive awards are given on reputation instead of merit most of the time, mostly because seemingly nobody has an idea how to properly judge defense.

Coaches vote on All-Defense, how in the world do they not know how to properly judge defense??

No-more-rings wrote:Good defender, but no. He wasn’t a top 6 perimeter defender which is more or less what it would take.

This. Lebron's defense too that next step after being in the 08 Olympics. Kobe & Kidd made it a staple, and other stars took that with them after.

Dutchball97 wrote:Defensive awards are given on reputation instead of merit most of the time, mostly because seemingly nobody has an idea how to properly judge defense.

Mostly, and this is even after we at least have some reliable data that should give us some idea.

For example, take a look at these seasons from from 2019 to 2021; two of them were 2nd team all NBA defense seasons, while the other two weren’t.

Season A

ISO defense: .71 PPP allowed, 82nd percentile
P&R ball handler: .78, 76th
P&R Roll man: .70, 87th
Post Up: .59, 95th
Spot up: .85, 87th
Hand off: .83, 64th
Off screens: .88, 64th

Team DRTg ON court: 103.6
Team DRtg OFF court: 107.1
DRAPM: 4th in the NBA

Opponents shot 4.3% WORSE against him than vs. everyone else

Season B

ISO defense: .72 PPP allowed, 81st percentile
P&R ball handler: .75, 83rd
P&R Roll man: .93, 63rd
Post Up: .80, 76th
Spot up: .81, 90th
Hand off: .93, 50th
Off screens: .96, 53rd

Team DRTg ON court: 103.2
Team DRtg OFF court: 107.6
DRAPM: 26th in the NBA

Opponents shot 6.3% WORSE vs. him than against everyone else, 3rd best in the NBA

Season C

ISO defense: 1.19 PPP allowed, 10th percentile
P&R ball handler: .87, 58th
P&R Roll man: Not enough data
Post Up: .86, 67th
Spot up: 1.03, 50th
Hand off: 1.06, 29th
Off screens: .96, 53rd

Team DRTg ON court: 109.2
Team DRtg OFF court: 110.4
DRAPM: 33rd in the NBA

Opponents shot 2.0% BETTER vs. him than against everyone else

Season D

ISO defense: .55 PPP allowed, 96th percentile
P&R ball handler: .83, 63rd
P&R Roll man: not enough data
Post Up: 1.00, 36th
Spot up: .91, 77th
Hand off: .57, 94th
Off screens: 1.04, 32nd

Team DRTg ON court: 107.8
Team DRtg OFF court: 104.1
DRAPM: 278th in the NBA

Opponents shot 2.0% WORSE vs. him than against everyone else

And here’s a bonus season from 2017 that was 1st team all defense:

Defensive Play type
ISO: .93 PPP allowed, 44th percentile
P&R ball handler: .83, 63rd
P&R Roll man: not enough data
Post Up: 1.00, 36th
Spot up: 1.02 45th
Hand off: .57, 94th
Off screens: 1.04, 32nd

Team DRTg ON court: 105.1
Team DRtg OFF court: 96.1
DRAPM: 278 in the NBA

Opponents shot 1.5% WORSE vs. him than against everyone else

tone wone wrote:God no. Its his 1st season as a real positive but he's still just a passenger, not driving anything defensively that year. Also, you dont need elite talent to get strong results defensively if you're well coached and dont play too many liabilities. This is Mike Brown's 2nd year and you really see his coaching take hold at that end.

Damon Jones and Boobie were the only legit poor defenders in the rotation.

They basically had four plus defenders—Varejao, Marshall, Snow, and James.

—Andy V. was very good defensively as was Marshall
—Gooden was awful
—Eric Snow was very good defensively though unplayable on offense
—Relative to position, Big Z was either neutral or a slight negative.
—Pavlovic was a negative bordering on a liability
— Hughes was neutral
—Jones was a negative

This is like 95% of their total regular season minutes,
—Gibson was a liability.

I think the only reason Verajao didn't is because his mpg were semi limited. It would be interesting to see the lowest mpg that ever got an all defense nod. Might be Rodman back in the late 80's.

Cavsfansince84 wrote:I think the only reason Verajao didn't is because his mpg were semi limited. It would be interesting to see the lowest mpg that ever got an all defense nod. Might be Rodman back in the late 80's.

i'm guessing it's thybulle if you mean either first or second team. iirc it was a talking point when he was selected

jalengreen wrote:

Cavsfansince84 wrote:I think the only reason Verajao didn't is because his mpg were semi limited. It would be interesting to see the lowest mpg that ever got an all defense nod. Might be Rodman back in the late 80's.

i'm guessing it's thybulle if you mean either first or second team. iirc it was a talking point when he was selected

Could be. I haven't been keeping up with all defensive teams that much the last 5-10 years.

homecourtloss wrote:

Dutchball97 wrote:Defensive awards are given on reputation instead of merit most of the time, mostly because seemingly nobody has an idea how to properly judge defense.

Mostly, and this is even after we at least have some reliable data that should give us some idea.

For example, take a look at these seasons from from 2019 to 2021; two of them were 2nd team all NBA defense seasons, while the other two weren’t.

Season A

ISO defense: .71 PPP allowed, 82nd percentile
P&R ball handler: .78, 76th
P&R Roll man: .70, 87th
Post Up: .59, 95th
Spot up: .85, 87th
Hand off: .83, 64th
Off screens: .88, 64th

Team DRTg ON court: 103.6
Team DRtg OFF court: 107.1
DRAPM: 4th in the NBA

Opponents shot 4.3% WORSE against him than vs. everyone else

Season B

ISO defense: .72 PPP allowed, 81st percentile
P&R ball handler: .75, 83rd
P&R Roll man: .93, 63rd
Post Up: .80, 76th
Spot up: .81, 90th
Hand off: .93, 50th
Off screens: .96, 53rd

Team DRTg ON court: 103.2
Team DRtg OFF court: 107.6
DRAPM: 26th in the NBA

Opponents shot 6.3% WORSE vs. him than against everyone else, 3rd best in the NBA

Season C

ISO defense: 1.19 PPP allowed, 10th percentile
P&R ball handler: .87, 58th
P&R Roll man: Not enough data
Post Up: .86, 67th
Spot up: 1.03, 50th
Hand off: 1.06, 29th
Off screens: .96, 53rd

Team DRTg ON court: 109.2
Team DRtg OFF court: 110.4
DRAPM: 33rd in the NBA

Opponents shot 2.0% BETTER vs. him than against everyone else

Season D

ISO defense: .55 PPP allowed, 96th percentile
P&R ball handler: .83, 63rd
P&R Roll man: not enough data
Post Up: 1.00, 36th
Spot up: .91, 77th
Hand off: .57, 94th
Off screens: 1.04, 32nd

Team DRTg ON court: 107.8
Team DRtg OFF court: 104.1
DRAPM: 278th in the NBA

Opponents shot 2.0% WORSE vs. him than against everyone else

And here’s a bonus season from 2017 that was 1st team all defense:

Defensive Play type
ISO: .93 PPP allowed, 44th percentile
P&R ball handler: .83, 63rd
P&R Roll man: not enough data
Post Up: 1.00, 36th
Spot up: 1.02 45th
Hand off: .57, 94th
Off screens: 1.04, 32nd

Team DRTg ON court: 105.1
Team DRtg OFF court: 96.1
DRAPM: 278 in the NBA

Opponents shot 1.5% WORSE vs. him than against everyone else

Which player is which?

falcolombardi wrote:

homecourtloss wrote:

Dutchball97 wrote:Defensive awards are given on reputation instead of merit most of the time, mostly because seemingly nobody has an idea how to properly judge defense.

Mostly, and this is even after we at least have some reliable data that should give us some idea.

For example, take a look at these seasons from from 2019 to 2021; two of them were 2nd team all NBA defense seasons, while the other two weren’t.

Season A

ISO defense: .71 PPP allowed, 82nd percentile
P&R ball handler: .78, 76th
P&R Roll man: .70, 87th
Post Up: .59, 95th
Spot up: .85, 87th
Hand off: .83, 64th
Off screens: .88, 64th

Team DRTg ON court: 103.6
Team DRtg OFF court: 107.1
DRAPM: 4th in the NBA

Opponents shot 4.3% WORSE against him than vs. everyone else

Season B

ISO defense: .72 PPP allowed, 81st percentile
P&R ball handler: .75, 83rd
P&R Roll man: .93, 63rd
Post Up: .80, 76th
Spot up: .81, 90th
Hand off: .93, 50th
Off screens: .96, 53rd

Team DRTg ON court: 103.2
Team DRtg OFF court: 107.6
DRAPM: 26th in the NBA

Opponents shot 6.3% WORSE vs. him than against everyone else, 3rd best in the NBA

Season C

ISO defense: 1.19 PPP allowed, 10th percentile
P&R ball handler: .87, 58th
P&R Roll man: Not enough data
Post Up: .86, 67th
Spot up: 1.03, 50th
Hand off: 1.06, 29th
Off screens: .96, 53rd

Team DRTg ON court: 109.2
Team DRtg OFF court: 110.4
DRAPM: 33rd in the NBA

Opponents shot 2.0% BETTER vs. him than against everyone else

Season D

ISO defense: .55 PPP allowed, 96th percentile
P&R ball handler: .83, 63rd
P&R Roll man: not enough data
Post Up: 1.00, 36th
Spot up: .91, 77th
Hand off: .57, 94th
Off screens: 1.04, 32nd

Team DRTg ON court: 107.8
Team DRtg OFF court: 104.1
DRAPM: 278th in the NBA

Opponents shot 2.0% WORSE vs. him than against everyone else

And here’s a bonus season from 2017 that was 1st team all defense:

Defensive Play type
ISO: .93 PPP allowed, 44th percentile
P&R ball handler: .83, 63rd
P&R Roll man: not enough data
Post Up: 1.00, 36th
Spot up: 1.02 45th
Hand off: .57, 94th
Off screens: 1.04, 32nd

Team DRTg ON court: 105.1
Team DRtg OFF court: 96.1
DRAPM: 278 in the NBA

Opponents shot 1.5% WORSE vs. him than against everyone else

Which player is which?

Season A is LeBron 2020
Season B is LeBron 2021
Season C is Kawhi 2021 (2nd team all defense)
Season D is Lawhi 2019 (2nd team all defense)

The season from 2017 is Kawhi 2017 (first team all defense)

homecourtloss wrote:

falcolombardi wrote:

homecourtloss wrote:
Mostly, and this is even after we at least have some reliable data that should give us some idea.

For example, take a look at these seasons from from 2019 to 2021; two of them were 2nd team all NBA defense seasons, while the other two weren’t.

Season A

ISO defense: .71 PPP allowed, 82nd percentile
P&R ball handler: .78, 76th
P&R Roll man: .70, 87th
Post Up: .59, 95th
Spot up: .85, 87th
Hand off: .83, 64th
Off screens: .88, 64th

Team DRTg ON court: 103.6
Team DRtg OFF court: 107.1
DRAPM: 4th in the NBA

Opponents shot 4.3% WORSE against him than vs. everyone else

Season B

ISO defense: .72 PPP allowed, 81st percentile
P&R ball handler: .75, 83rd
P&R Roll man: .93, 63rd
Post Up: .80, 76th
Spot up: .81, 90th
Hand off: .93, 50th
Off screens: .96, 53rd

Team DRTg ON court: 103.2
Team DRtg OFF court: 107.6
DRAPM: 26th in the NBA

Opponents shot 6.3% WORSE vs. him than against everyone else, 3rd best in the NBA

Season C

ISO defense: 1.19 PPP allowed, 10th percentile
P&R ball handler: .87, 58th
P&R Roll man: Not enough data
Post Up: .86, 67th
Spot up: 1.03, 50th
Hand off: 1.06, 29th
Off screens: .96, 53rd

Team DRTg ON court: 109.2
Team DRtg OFF court: 110.4
DRAPM: 33rd in the NBA

Opponents shot 2.0% BETTER vs. him than against everyone else

Season D

ISO defense: .55 PPP allowed, 96th percentile
P&R ball handler: .83, 63rd
P&R Roll man: not enough data
Post Up: 1.00, 36th
Spot up: .91, 77th
Hand off: .57, 94th
Off screens: 1.04, 32nd

Team DRTg ON court: 107.8
Team DRtg OFF court: 104.1
DRAPM: 278th in the NBA

Opponents shot 2.0% WORSE vs. him than against everyone else

And here’s a bonus season from 2017 that was 1st team all defense:

Defensive Play type
ISO: .93 PPP allowed, 44th percentile
P&R ball handler: .83, 63rd
P&R Roll man: not enough data
Post Up: 1.00, 36th
Spot up: 1.02 45th
Hand off: .57, 94th
Off screens: 1.04, 32nd

Team DRTg ON court: 105.1
Team DRtg OFF court: 96.1
DRAPM: 278 in the NBA

Opponents shot 1.5% WORSE vs. him than against everyone else

Which player is which?

Season A is LeBron 2020
Season B is LeBron 2021
Season C is Kawhi 2021 (2nd team all defense)
Season D is Lawhi 2019 (2nd team all defense)

The season from 2017 is Kawhi 2017 (first team all defense)

Are you saying you feel 20/21 Lebron was a better defender than 19 Kawhi??? First question on would ask if context. Like who is Kawhi guarding and who is Lebron.

Stats are fun to look at, but they don't have context and that's like 90% of the equation.

An Unbiased Fan wrote:

homecourtloss wrote:

falcolombardi wrote:
Which player is which?

Season A is LeBron 2020
Season B is LeBron 2021
Season C is Kawhi 2021 (2nd team all defense)
Season D is Lawhi 2019 (2nd team all defense)

The season from 2017 is Kawhi 2017 (first team all defense)

Are you saying you feel 20/21 Lebron was a better defender than 19 Kawhi??? First question on would ask if context. Like who is Kawhi guarding and who is Lebron.

Stats are fun to look at, but they don't have context and that's like 90% of the equation.

Yes, LeBron in 2020 and 2021 was a better defender than 2019 Kawhi.

The statistics that are present here account for almost all the context that there is. Then again, you think that Stoudemire and Gasol were the same level of defender so there’s not much I can do here.

homecourtloss wrote:

An Unbiased Fan wrote:

homecourtloss wrote:
Season A is LeBron 2020
Season B is LeBron 2021
Season C is Kawhi 2021 (2nd team all defense)
Season D is Lawhi 2019 (2nd team all defense)

The season from 2017 is Kawhi 2017 (first team all defense)

Are you saying you feel 20/21 Lebron was a better defender than 19 Kawhi??? First question on would ask if context. Like who is Kawhi guarding and who is Lebron.

Stats are fun to look at, but they don't have context and that's like 90% of the equation.

Yes, LeBron in 2020 and 2021 was a better defender than 2019 Kawhi.

The statistics that are present here account for almost all the context that there is. Then again, you think that Stoudemire and Gasol were the same level of defender so there’s not much I can do here.

You posted a few stats and want them to be gospel, that's just silly. Then again you think 20/21 Lebron was a better defender than 19 Kawhi so there's not much I can do here.

An Unbiased Fan wrote:

homecourtloss wrote:

An Unbiased Fan wrote:Are you saying you feel 20/21 Lebron was a better defender than 19 Kawhi??? First question on would ask if context. Like who is Kawhi guarding and who is Lebron.

Stats are fun to look at, but they don't have context and that's like 90% of the equation.

Yes, LeBron in 2020 and 2021 was a better defender than 2019 Kawhi.

The statistics that are present here account for almost all the context that there is. Then again, you think that Stoudemire and Gasol were the same level of defender so there’s not much I can do here.

You posted a few stats and want them to be gospel, that's just silly. Then again you think 20/21 Lebron was a better defender than 19 Kawhi so there's not much I can do here.

You are criticizint the use of "stats as gospel" but also come across as the dogmatic one here

I Think you may be going too much off name recognition here by equating 2019 kawhi to his dpoy years

Just like i wouldnt argue 2014 lebron is a elite defender by imagining 2012 lebron i wouldnt equate 2019 kawhi to 2016

What do you think makes 2019 kawhi>2020 lebron so obvious?

falcolombardi wrote:

An Unbiased Fan wrote:

homecourtloss wrote:
Yes, LeBron in 2020 and 2021 was a better defender than 2019 Kawhi.

The statistics that are present here account for almost all the context that there is. Then again, you think that Stoudemire and Gasol were the same level of defender so there’s not much I can do here.

You posted a few stats and want them to be gospel, that's just silly. Then again you think 20/21 Lebron was a better defender than 19 Kawhi so there's not much I can do here.

You are criticizint the use of "stats as gospel" but also come across as the dogmatic one here

I Think you may be going too much off name recognition here by equating 2019 kawhi to his dpoy years

Just like i wouldnt argue 2014 lebron is a elite defender by imagining 2012 lebron i wouldnt equate 2019 kawhi to 2016

What do you think makes 2019 kawhi>2020 lebron so obvious?

I saw a guy argue something like Kawhi is a top defender in 2019 in a discord channel.

They're just going off reputation from 3 years ago. it's pretty common in basketball. I've said a few times that the basketball media is almost always 2 years behind on defense, which reflects upon casual fans.