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Inspired by some of the Duncan/Bird debate we've had recently on here, thought it would be worth having a thread for.

I can't get Duncan and Bird out of a team context. If you divide positions into 10 positions, the offensive and defensive version of each of the 5 positions then I think defensive center is the most important position. Offensive Shaq and Wilt were very impactful.

With my theory I want a good defensive center and good rim protection. Duncan can be a good defensive center. But what if your team already has David Robinson or Robert Parish; how much do you need Duncan as a 2nd defensive center? Suppose your team has both Robinson and Parish so Duncan is not even needed as a back up center but rather we are just thinking about Duncan as a power forward playing next to a good rim protecting defensive center. If I already have my rim protectors than I much prefer what Bird brings as the power forward to what Duncan can do.

Do not hold Bird's problems defending small forwards against Bird because that was Bird playing out of position. Duncan won't do much better than Bird at defending Dr J but neither Duncan nor Bird should be asked to defend Dr J. Bird's natural position waa power forward and the fact that Bird can shoot and pass better than powere forwards does not change the fact that Bird's natural position was power forward.

With Duncan he is naturally both a power forward and a center but I think he is more valuable as a center because there is always a shortage of quality centers in the NBA.

So my answer, if the team already has quality rim protecting center then Bird is better but if the team does not have a quality rim protecting center then Duncan is better.

If they have guaranteed equal longevity and I must choose one of them for the first pick in my team's expansion draft I wil choose Bird and try to find the rim protectors later in my expansion draft.

I don't like longevity. If my expansion draft goal is to win one chamionship in my team's first 20 years I choose Bird over Duncan. If my team's goal is to get to 8 conference finals in the team's first 20 years then I choose Duncan because of longevity.

Suppose I have best each of Hybrid player from 2014 Spurs and 1986 Celtics

Parish -Splitter
McHale - Diaw
Wedman - Kawhi
Ainge- Danny Green
Dennis Johnson - Ginobil
Sichting-Parker
Carlisle-Belineli
Sam Vincent- Patty Mills

Well this team does not need either of Bird or Duncan to win the championship but which player could help the team more?
(The team will need to add a G-leage level power forward to play 10 to 20 minutes a game if I don't add Bird or Duncan)

McHale-Diaw must be the back up center if I don't choose Duncan. I have no problem with McHale as the back up center although Duncan would be a little better. McHale was the back up center on the 1984 Celtics that beat up Kareem and the Kakers on tge Boards.

I am chosing Bird over Duncan to join that super team.

Next exercise, on every Tim Duncan team I replace Duncan with a hybrid player, best of that year's Duncan, best of final year Robinson and best of peak year Robison. Now i am going to add one player to create a champion that dominates the playoffs. I eather add peak Bird or peak Duncan. If I choose Duncan there will be 2 Duncans on the team. My choice for every Duncan team is to add Bird rather than have 2 Duncans.

On the 2014 Spurs you get best of Old Duncan and peak Robinson as your center. Splitter as the back up center. Diaw becomes the back up power forward and one of peak Duncan or peak Bird is the staring power forward. I prefer Peak Bird to peak Duncan in this context.

Next exercise.take the 16th best team from each season and give them either peak Bird or peak Duncan. If the 16th best team does not have a good rim protecting center then I chose Duncan. If they have a good rim protecting center then I choose Bird. Adding either of peak Duncan or peak Bird to a 16th best NBA team should transform that team into a championship contender.

SinceGatlingWasARookie wrote:I can't get Duncan and Bird out of a team context. If you divide positions into 10 positions, the offensive and defensive version of each of the 5 positions then I think defensive center is the most important position. Offensive Shaq and Wilt were very impactful.

With my theory I want a good defensive center and good rim protection. Duncan can be a good defensive center. But what if your team already has David Robinson or Robert Parish; how much do you need Duncan as a 2nd defensive center? Suppose your team has both Robinson and Parish so Duncan is not even needed as a back up center but rather we are just thinking about Duncan as a power forward playing next to a good rim protecting defensive center. If I already have my rim protectors than I much prefer what Bird brings as the power forward to what Duncan can do.

Do not hold Bird's problems defending small forwards against Bird because that was Bird playing out of position. Duncan won't do much better than Bird at defending Dr J but neither Duncan nor Bird should be asked to defend Dr J. Bird's natural position waa power forward and the fact that Bird can shoot and pass better than powere forwards does not change the fact that Bird's natural position was power forward.

With Duncan he is naturally both a power forward and a center but I think he is more valuable as a center because there is always a shortage of quality centers in the NBA.

So my answer, if the team already has quality rim protecting center then Bird is better but if the team does not have a quality rim protecting center then Duncan is better.

If they have guaranteed equal longevity and I must choose one of them for the first pick in my team's expansion draft I wil choose Bird and try to find the rim protectors later in my expansion draft.

I don't like longevity. If my expansion draft goal is to win one chamionship in my team's first 20 years I choose Bird over Duncan. If my team's goal is to get to 8 conference finals in the team's first 20 years then I choose Duncan because of longevity.

You're wondering what would happen if you already have David Robinson, a top 20 player of all time? That's the thing that's holding Duncan back? I would think that if you have David Robinson on your team already you're probably going to win a title regardless.

What happens if you have a team and you already have Lebron James and Dirk Nowitzki? Do you really need a 6th man Larry Bird? Doesn't sound like much of a criticism or a problem.

SinceGatlingWasARookie wrote:I can't get Duncan and Bird out of a team context. If you divide positions into 10 positions, the offensive and defensive version of each of the 5 positions then I think defensive center is the most important position. Offensive Shaq and Wilt were very impactful.

With my theory I want a good defensive center and good rim protection. Duncan can be a good defensive center. But what if your team already has David Robinson or Robert Parish; how much do you need Duncan as a 2nd defensive center? Suppose your team has both Robinson and Parish so Duncan is not even needed as a back up center but rather we are just thinking about Duncan as a power forward playing next to a good rim protecting defensive center. If I already have my rim protectors than I much prefer what Bird brings as the power forward to what Duncan can do.

Do not hold Bird's problems defending small forwards against Bird because that was Bird playing out of position. Duncan won't do much better than Bird at defending Dr J but neither Duncan nor Bird should be asked to defend Dr J. Bird's natural position waa power forward and the fact that Bird can shoot and pass better than powere forwards does not change the fact that Bird's natural position was power forward.

With Duncan he is naturally both a power forward and a center but I think he is more valuable as a center because there is always a shortage of quality centers in the NBA.

So my answer, if the team already has quality rim protecting center then Bird is better but if the team does not have a quality rim protecting center then Duncan is better.

If they have guaranteed equal longevity and I must choose one of them for the first pick in my team's expansion draft I wil choose Bird and try to find the rim protectors later in my expansion draft.

I don't like longevity. If my expansion draft goal is to win one chamionship in my team's first 20 years I choose Bird over Duncan. If my team's goal is to get to 8 conference finals in the team's first 20 years then I choose Duncan because of longevity.

If you think defensive center is the most important role in the game then that is a reason to prefer duncan, not the other way around

HeartBreakKid wrote:

SinceGatlingWasARookie wrote:I can't get Duncan and Bird out of a team context. If you divide positions into 10 positions, the offensive and defensive version of each of the 5 positions then I think defensive center is the most important position. Offensive Shaq and Wilt were very impactful.

With my theory I want a good defensive center and good rim protection. Duncan can be a good defensive center. But what if your team already has David Robinson or Robert Parish; how much do you need Duncan as a 2nd defensive center? Suppose your team has both Robinson and Parish so Duncan is not even needed as a back up center but rather we are just thinking about Duncan as a power forward playing next to a good rim protecting defensive center. If I already have my rim protectors than I much prefer what Bird brings as the power forward to what Duncan can do.

Do not hold Bird's problems defending small forwards against Bird because that was Bird playing out of position. Duncan won't do much better than Bird at defending Dr J but neither Duncan nor Bird should be asked to defend Dr J. Bird's natural position waa power forward and the fact that Bird can shoot and pass better than powere forwards does not change the fact that Bird's natural position was power forward.

With Duncan he is naturally both a power forward and a center but I think he is more valuable as a center because there is always a shortage of quality centers in the NBA.

So my answer, if the team already has quality rim protecting center then Bird is better but if the team does not have a quality rim protecting center then Duncan is better.

If they have guaranteed equal longevity and I must choose one of them for the first pick in my team's expansion draft I wil choose Bird and try to find the rim protectors later in my expansion draft.

I don't like longevity. If my expansion draft goal is to win one chamionship in my team's first 20 years I choose Bird over Duncan. If my team's goal is to get to 8 conference finals in the team's first 20 years then I choose Duncan because of longevity.

You're wondering what would happen if you already have David Robinson, a top 20 player of all time? That's the thing that's holding Duncan back? I would think that if you have David Robinson on your team already you're probably going to win a title regardless.

What happens if you have a team and you already have Lebron James and Dirk Nowitzki? Do you really need a 6th man Larry Bird? Doesn't sound like much of a criticism or a problem.

You want Bird. You shift Dirk to center and Let Bird and Dirk create space for LeBron. Then you find a rim protector as Dirk's back up. Dirk does not give me the rim protection I want but I will put up with that to have Dirk's shooting. LeBron can help with rim protection. If I must have somebody as the 6th man it is Dirk because Bird was better tha Dirk.

SinceGatlingWasARookie wrote:

HeartBreakKid wrote:

SinceGatlingWasARookie wrote:I can't get Duncan and Bird out of a team context. If you divide positions into 10 positions, the offensive and defensive version of each of the 5 positions then I think defensive center is the most important position. Offensive Shaq and Wilt were very impactful.

With my theory I want a good defensive center and good rim protection. Duncan can be a good defensive center. But what if your team already has David Robinson or Robert Parish; how much do you need Duncan as a 2nd defensive center? Suppose your team has both Robinson and Parish so Duncan is not even needed as a back up center but rather we are just thinking about Duncan as a power forward playing next to a good rim protecting defensive center. If I already have my rim protectors than I much prefer what Bird brings as the power forward to what Duncan can do.

Do not hold Bird's problems defending small forwards against Bird because that was Bird playing out of position. Duncan won't do much better than Bird at defending Dr J but neither Duncan nor Bird should be asked to defend Dr J. Bird's natural position waa power forward and the fact that Bird can shoot and pass better than powere forwards does not change the fact that Bird's natural position was power forward.

With Duncan he is naturally both a power forward and a center but I think he is more valuable as a center because there is always a shortage of quality centers in the NBA.

So my answer, if the team already has quality rim protecting center then Bird is better but if the team does not have a quality rim protecting center then Duncan is better.

If they have guaranteed equal longevity and I must choose one of them for the first pick in my team's expansion draft I wil choose Bird and try to find the rim protectors later in my expansion draft.

I don't like longevity. If my expansion draft goal is to win one chamionship in my team's first 20 years I choose Bird over Duncan. If my team's goal is to get to 8 conference finals in the team's first 20 years then I choose Duncan because of longevity.

You're wondering what would happen if you already have David Robinson, a top 20 player of all time? That's the thing that's holding Duncan back? I would think that if you have David Robinson on your team already you're probably going to win a title regardless.

What happens if you have a team and you already have Lebron James and Dirk Nowitzki? Do you really need a 6th man Larry Bird? Doesn't sound like much of a criticism or a problem.

You want Bird. You shift Dirk to center and Let Bird and Dirk create space for LeBron. Then you find a rim protector as Dirk's back up. Dirk does not give me the rim protection I want but I will put up with that to have Dirk's shooting. LeBron can help with rim protection. If I must have somebody as the 6th man it is Dirk because Bird was better tha Dirk.

This comparision is starting to go off a tangent as is not bird vs dirk that is being compared

Duncan/dirk/lebron vs dirk/bird/lebron would all be dinasty teams. At that point the talent is so overwhelming that the differences would be negligible

They are winnign rings regardless

SinceGatlingWasARookie wrote:

HeartBreakKid wrote:

SinceGatlingWasARookie wrote:I can't get Duncan and Bird out of a team context. If you divide positions into 10 positions, the offensive and defensive version of each of the 5 positions then I think defensive center is the most important position. Offensive Shaq and Wilt were very impactful.

With my theory I want a good defensive center and good rim protection. Duncan can be a good defensive center. But what if your team already has David Robinson or Robert Parish; how much do you need Duncan as a 2nd defensive center? Suppose your team has both Robinson and Parish so Duncan is not even needed as a back up center but rather we are just thinking about Duncan as a power forward playing next to a good rim protecting defensive center. If I already have my rim protectors than I much prefer what Bird brings as the power forward to what Duncan can do.

Do not hold Bird's problems defending small forwards against Bird because that was Bird playing out of position. Duncan won't do much better than Bird at defending Dr J but neither Duncan nor Bird should be asked to defend Dr J. Bird's natural position waa power forward and the fact that Bird can shoot and pass better than powere forwards does not change the fact that Bird's natural position was power forward.

With Duncan he is naturally both a power forward and a center but I think he is more valuable as a center because there is always a shortage of quality centers in the NBA.

So my answer, if the team already has quality rim protecting center then Bird is better but if the team does not have a quality rim protecting center then Duncan is better.

If they have guaranteed equal longevity and I must choose one of them for the first pick in my team's expansion draft I wil choose Bird and try to find the rim protectors later in my expansion draft.

I don't like longevity. If my expansion draft goal is to win one chamionship in my team's first 20 years I choose Bird over Duncan. If my team's goal is to get to 8 conference finals in the team's first 20 years then I choose Duncan because of longevity.

You're wondering what would happen if you already have David Robinson, a top 20 player of all time? That's the thing that's holding Duncan back? I would think that if you have David Robinson on your team already you're probably going to win a title regardless.

What happens if you have a team and you already have Lebron James and Dirk Nowitzki? Do you really need a 6th man Larry Bird? Doesn't sound like much of a criticism or a problem.

You want Bird. You shift Dirk to center and Let Bird and Dirk create space for LeBron. Then you find a rim protector as Dirk's back up. Dirk does not give me the rim protection I want but I will put up with that to have Dirk's shooting. LeBron can help with rim protection. If I must have somebody as the 6th man it is Dirk because Bird was better tha Dirk.

you're saying that while at the same time claiming that Duncan would be a 2nd defensive center on a team with Robert Parish?


Regardless, I don't think you're seeing the point. Your criticism against Duncan isn't about something that is of important priority. You're saying what happens if you have Tim Duncan and David Robinson, as if that is a problem. That is like saying what happens if you want Magic Johnson but you have Oscar Robertson - if you're arguing that Oscar Robertson is worse than Magic Johnson then you are missing the point (your own point at that).

You're talking about a hypothetical that isn't even worth concerning. What happens if you have an ATG playing on a stacked team whre guys play his position already - who cares at that point? You would have an ATG team

HeartBreakKid wrote:

SinceGatlingWasARookie wrote:

HeartBreakKid wrote:
You're wondering what would happen if you already have David Robinson, a top 20 player of all time? That's the thing that's holding Duncan back? I would think that if you have David Robinson on your team already you're probably going to win a title regardless.

What happens if you have a team and you already have Lebron James and Dirk Nowitzki? Do you really need a 6th man Larry Bird? Doesn't sound like much of a criticism or a problem.

You want Bird. You shift Dirk to center and Let Bird and Dirk create space for LeBron. Then you find a rim protector as Dirk's back up. Dirk does not give me the rim protection I want but I will put up with that to have Dirk's shooting. LeBron can help with rim protection. If I must have somebody as the 6th man it is Dirk because Bird was better tha Dirk.

you're saying that while at the same time claiming that Duncan would be a 2nd defensive center on a team with Robert Parish?


Regardless, I don't think you're seeing the point. Your criticism against Duncan isn't about something that is of important priority. You're saying what happens if you have Tim Duncan and David Robinson, as if that is a problem. That is like saying what happens if you want Magic Johnson but you have Oscar Robertson - if you're arguing that Oscar Robertson is worse than Magic Johnson then you are missing the point (your own point at that).

You're talking about a hypothetical that isn't even worth concerning. What happens if you have an ATG playing on a stacked team whre guys play his position already - who cares at that point? You would have an ATG team

No. If I am getting rim protection from another center then Bird is better than Duncan as the power forward.
If I have a bunch of wide body ground bound non leaping G-League centers that don't provide rim protection plus I have Michel Jordan, and Steph Curry, then I prefer Duncan at power forward over Bird.

The issue is do I need Duncan for rim protection or do I have somebody else for rim protection. If I have Ostertag and Manute Bol as centers then I want Bird at power forward but if I have Bill Lambeer at center then I want Tim Duncan at power forward.

SinceGatlingWasARookie wrote:

HeartBreakKid wrote:

SinceGatlingWasARookie wrote:You want Bird. You shift Dirk to center and Let Bird and Dirk create space for LeBron. Then you find a rim protector as Dirk's back up. Dirk does not give me the rim protection I want but I will put up with that to have Dirk's shooting. LeBron can help with rim protection. If I must have somebody as the 6th man it is Dirk because Bird was better tha Dirk.

you're saying that while at the same time claiming that Duncan would be a 2nd defensive center on a team with Robert Parish?


Regardless, I don't think you're seeing the point. Your criticism against Duncan isn't about something that is of important priority. You're saying what happens if you have Tim Duncan and David Robinson, as if that is a problem. That is like saying what happens if you want Magic Johnson but you have Oscar Robertson - if you're arguing that Oscar Robertson is worse than Magic Johnson then you are missing the point (your own point at that).

You're talking about a hypothetical that isn't even worth concerning. What happens if you have an ATG playing on a stacked team whre guys play his position already - who cares at that point? You would have an ATG team

No. If I am getting rim protection from a center then Bird is better than Duncan as the power forward.
If I have A buch of wide body ground bound non leaping G-League centers that don't provide rim protection plus Michel Jordan, and Step Curry, then I prefer Duncan at power forward over Bird.

The issue is do I need Duncan for rim protection or do I have somebody else for rim protection. If I have Ostertag and Manute Bol as centers then I want Bird at power forward but if I have Bill Lambeer at center then I want Tim Duncan at power forward.

If i already have lebron james to run the offense then i would prefer a rim protecting center like duncan before bird

The reasoning goes both ways

falcolombardi wrote:

SinceGatlingWasARookie wrote:

HeartBreakKid wrote:

you're saying that while at the same time claiming that Duncan would be a 2nd defensive center on a team with Robert Parish?


Regardless, I don't think you're seeing the point. Your criticism against Duncan isn't about something that is of important priority. You're saying what happens if you have Tim Duncan and David Robinson, as if that is a problem. That is like saying what happens if you want Magic Johnson but you have Oscar Robertson - if you're arguing that Oscar Robertson is worse than Magic Johnson then you are missing the point (your own point at that).

You're talking about a hypothetical that isn't even worth concerning. What happens if you have an ATG playing on a stacked team whre guys play his position already - who cares at that point? You would have an ATG team

No. If I am getting rim protection from a center then Bird is better than Duncan as the power forward.
If I have A buch of wide body ground bound non leaping G-League centers that don't provide rim protection plus Michel Jordan, and Step Curry, then I prefer Duncan at power forward over Bird.

The issue is do I need Duncan for rim protection or do I have somebody else for rim protection. If I have Ostertag and Manute Bol as centers then I want Bird at power forward but if I have Bill Lambeer at center then I want Tim Duncan at power forward.

If i already have lebron james to run the offense then i would prefer a rim protecting center like duncan before bird

The reasoning goes both ways

In theory Bird and LeBron should be able to play off each other in a flowing offense like Magic and Norm Nixon did even though they did not like sharing the ball with each other. I am sure that Bird would utilize LeBron but I am not as sure if LeBron had the ability to utilize Bird. LeBron might not figure out how to use Bird as a passer. Younger LeBron would probably be fine but LeBron on the LeBron Kyrie team seemed rather addicted to himsel in the drive and kick role but that might have been because LeBron in a drive and kick role was what was best for the team. I did not feel like the LeBron Kyrie team swung the ball. Everybody just waited for LeBron to do his thing.

But LeBron coukd just dump the ball in deep to Bird and let Bird score inside. Non Celtic fans remember Bird scoring outside and don't rember how good of an inside scorer Bird was. I prefer Bird as an inside scorer to Duncan as an inside scorer. On the Celtics the fact that Maxwell and McHale had no outside game and Parish's outside game only extends to short mid range and Dennis Johnson's outside game was not good enough to stop Johnson's defender from sagging into the paint makes people not realize what Bird could do if he ever got a defender one on one in the paint.

I'd go with Duncan because Bird from 1981-1983 wasn't really that good plus he often had postseason injuries even in his peak 1984-1988 period. You can definitely argue that Bird peaked higher but his lack of durability hurts him here.

SinceGatlingWasARookie wrote:I don't like longevity. If my expansion draft goal is to win one chamionship in my team's first 20 years I choose Bird over Duncan. If my team's goal is to get to 8 conference finals in the team's first 20 years then I choose Duncan because of longevity.

What about 2 championships? 3 championships? 4 championships? 5 championships?

Its almost as if you have arbitrary cut-offs to boost Bird and diminish Duncan.

FWIW, Duncan is typically ranked neck-and-neck with Bird in peak play.

Duncan also won in his 2nd year in the NBA.

Bird lost with HCA in 82, 83, 85
Duncan lost with HCA in 01, 04, 06

Watch Amar'e Stoudemire carve up Tim Duncan.
Game 5, 2005 playoffs
Suns lost a close game.
Suns could not stop Duncan Parker and Ginobili from scoring.
Turns out I pretty strongly prefer announcers on and speaking English.
I can't understand these Chinese announcers but I am getting the feeling that Ginobili is their favorite player.
Ex NBA player that used to live with me turned the sound off to watch basketball.
He particularly did not want to hear Bill Walton.

SinceGatlingWasARookie wrote:

Watch on YouTube

Watch Amar'e Stoudemire carve up Tim Duncan.
Game 5, 2005 playoffs
Suns lost a close game.
Suns could not stop Duncan Parker and Ginobili from scoring.
Turns out I pretty strongly prefer announcers on and speaking English.
I can't understand these Chinese announcers but I am getting the feeling that Ginobili is their favorite player.
Ex NBA player that used to live with me turned the sound off to watch basketball.
He particularly did not want to hear Bill Walton.

Did you even watch this game? The game in whichc Duncan had 9 blocks?

Colbinii wrote:

SinceGatlingWasARookie wrote:I don't like longevity. If my expansion draft goal is to win one chamionship in my team's first 20 years I choose Bird over Duncan. If my team's goal is to get to 8 conference finals in the team's first 20 years then I choose Duncan because of longevity.

What about 2 championships? 3 championships? 4 championships? 5 championships?

Its almost as if you have arbitrary cut-offs to boost Bird and diminish Duncan.

FWIW, Duncan is typically ranked neck-and-neck with Bird in peak play.

Duncan also won in his 2nd year in the NBA.

And as far as arbitrary litmus tests go, duncan won the fmpv in his sophomore year where with celtics it was maxwell

I have to go Dunca, being that he just seemed to be more consistent in the PS than Bird.

APM goes up to 2017, and he along with KG are the only players with top-50 APM peaks on offense and defense respectively. This is while being his offense is arguably undervalued a bit by the larger RS sample, as he had a tendency to raise his offensive performance in the PS.

Regarding consistency in the PS, 98-02 Spurs had the second-best five-year defensive stretch of the 3-point era, with an rDRtg -5.6, where overall I believe Duncan provided the most defensive impact on the team over this stretch. This combined with him being a legit #1 option is tough to overcome for Bird, especially when I don't always love Bird as a #1 option in some playoff moments.

Also, feel like Bird isn't necessarily a better scorer than peak Duncan either (he might be at peak, but I do think Duncan was very possible more consistent during this stretch). Bird having injuries/sickness that seemingly affected his play more than Duncan's injuries, also might be something to consider.

SinceGatlingWasARookie wrote:

Watch on YouTube

Turns out I pretty strongly prefer announcers on and speaking English.

You prefer commentary in your own language?

Extraordinary insight.

SS_Carpathia wrote:

SinceGatlingWasARookie wrote:

Watch on YouTube

Turns out I pretty strongly prefer announcers on and speaking English.

You prefer commentary in your own language?

Extraordinary insight.

I feel stupid for wanting sound at all. I think my ex-nba player housemate was correct and the sound should be turned off. I am trying to watch the players. What do I need sound for. Sometimes I see a player do something good and I just want verification of which player that was.

But my ex NBA player housemate used to fall asleep while watching the game. He was pretty old, but I now am older than he waa when he died from a stroke.