RealGM

Why does Kobe defence look the weakest from all top def guards in past 20y? ON/Off numbers are showing that his numbers are way less imapacted than other with way less All-def team selections.

All-Defensive team selection

Kobe 12

RS defrtg in 106.42 out 106.10 defnet -0.32
PO defrtg in 105.25 out 105.50 defrtg +0.25

Allen 6

Mem run
RS drtg in 102.04 out 106.20 defnet +4.16
PO drtg in 103.24 out 110.93 defnet +7.69

Bos run
RS drtg in 101.72 out 105.34 defnet +3.62
PO drtg in 101.90 out 103.43 defnet +1.53

Kidd 9

NJ run
RS drtg in 101.47 out 103.33 defnet +1.86
PO drtg in 100.51 out 104.03 defnet +3.52

Dal run
RS drtg in 105.67 out 105.87 defnet +0.20
PO drtg in 107.02 out 115.57 defnet +8.55

Paul 9

NOP run RS defnet -0.65 PS defnet -7.70
LAC run RS defnet +1.76 PS defnet +1.83
HOU run RS defnet +3.02 PS defnet +5.87
PHO run RS defnet +0.26 PS Defnet -0.30

Rondo 4

Bos run RS defnet +1.37 PS defnet +1.93

I find on/off to be too reliable on teammates to draw any significant conclusions from but it's not a new discovery that Kobe got some of those All-Defensive selections later in his career based on reputation instead of merit. Surely there will be Kobe fans arguing that the journalists voting for these awards can't be wrong, unless of course they don't vote for Kobe, but that's just what happens if you make a thread including Kobe.

I think the interesting thing is how some posters talk about "NO ONE AT THE TIME THOUGHT____" but somehow are tone deaf that the majority of people thought Kobe was a bad defender when he won some of these awards.

It was a meme all season how bad Kobe's defense was when he was older, like 2011-13 - even among Laker fans and he still won all-defense awards. Makes me wonder if some of those "Kobe is a great defender because he has the most all-defense selections" are arguing in blind faith or are so bubbled and literally know so little about the basketball community that they're oblivious that that was the consensus.

I really don't like to pile on Kobe, but seriously his 12 all def teams selection are the biggest joke in the world, like, I can't find many things more wrong than that in sports and life. It's seriously problematic too, because it makes it seem like he has a defensive argument against almost anybody, when realistically most top 20-30 players ever are better defenders than him. Realistically he wasn't very swtichable or that much of an off ball threat, his stocks numbers aren't great... He was an excellent man defender on guards, but his effort fluctuated. He was a very good athlete, but not as freakish as many other guys. Besides, he made all-def when his team had like the 24, 23, 20th best defensive rating. I can understand a few selections when he was in his defensive peak and the lakers had a good def rtg, also because there's less competition as a guard, but that's it.

Kobe was one of the consistently best defenders at the guard position throughout his prime. He was an elite man to man defender in particular.

You know the RealGM won't give Kobe credit for anything but he was a great defender and was recognized as such.

lebron3-14-3 wrote:I really don't like to pile on Kobe, but seriously his 12 all def teams selection are the biggest joke in the world, like, I can't find many things more wrong than that in sports and life. It's seriously problematic too, because it makes it seem like he has a defensive argument against almost anybody, when realistically most top 20-30 players ever are better defenders than him. Realistically he wasn't very swtichable or that much of an off ball threat, his stocks numbers aren't great... He was an excellent man defender on guards, but his effort fluctuated. He was a very good athlete, but not as freakish as many other guys. Besides, he made all-def when his team had like the 24, 23, 20th best defensive rating. I can understand a few selections when he was in his defensive peak and the lakers had a good def rtg, also because there's less competition as a guard, but that's it.

agree, you usually award 12 def team selections to historically great, memorable, defenders. it's a rare feat. It's the number 12 that makes it look outrageous. How many did he deserve really? Maybe a couple, in the early '00, to keep it polite

About 75% of those are a joke, and about half of those an absolute travesty.

Stalwart wrote:Kobe was one of the consistently best defenders at the guard position throughout his prime. He was an elite man to man defender in particular.

You know the RealGM won't give Kobe credit for anything but he was a great defender and was recognized as such.

If you have any statistical evidence that'd be great tbh.

Kobe's 12 selections were every bit as deserved/earned as Duncan's 15 selections.

Some examples... I still don't know how Duncan got 1st Team in 2004-05 when Amar'e was dropping like 30-40 points on his dopey head in every game of that season. Or how he got 1st Team in 2007-08 when guards like Kobe would literally run circles around him. Anyone remember the playoffs that year? Where was Duncan's vaunted defense? The moment Kobes got past the Spurs perimeter defense, Duncan was like a large, slow sitting duck.

*grabs more popcorn*

It's not realistic but a ban on all Kobe threads would probably improve the quality of the board by a lot. It's just the same roundabout every time. People question Kobe's defense because statistically his impact doesn't line up with his accolades and then Kobe fans come in saying of course Kobe is an amazing defender because they love him so he must be.

MyUniBroDavis wrote:*grabs more popcorn*

you eat too much popcorn in last couple days. Eating too much popcorn can cause bloating and lead to heart disease..

Dutchball97 wrote:It's not realistic but a ban on all Kobe threads would probably improve the quality of the board by a lot. It's just the same roundabout every time. People question Kobe's defense because statistically his impact doesn't line up with his accolades and then Kobe fans come in saying of course Kobe is an amazing defender because they love him so he must be.

I think some Kobe threads are really dumb but an outright ban on Kobe threads would be kind of absurd lol

SpreeS wrote:

MyUniBroDavis wrote:*grabs more popcorn*

you eat too much popcorn in last couple days. Eating too much popcorn can cause bloating and lead to heart disease..

I didn’t realize this movie was in 4D :0

MyUniBroDavis wrote:

Dutchball97 wrote:It's not realistic but a ban on all Kobe threads would probably improve the quality of the board by a lot. It's just the same roundabout every time. People question Kobe's defense because statistically his impact doesn't line up with his accolades and then Kobe fans come in saying of course Kobe is an amazing defender because they love him so he must be.

I think some Kobe threads are really dumb but an outright ban on Kobe threads would be kind of absurd lol

Oh yeah absolutely that's why I said it's not realistic.

Dutchball97 wrote:

MyUniBroDavis wrote:

Dutchball97 wrote:It's not realistic but a ban on all Kobe threads would probably improve the quality of the board by a lot. It's just the same roundabout every time. People question Kobe's defense because statistically his impact doesn't line up with his accolades and then Kobe fans come in saying of course Kobe is an amazing defender because they love him so he must be.

I think some Kobe threads are really dumb but an outright ban on Kobe threads would be kind of absurd lol

Oh yeah absolutely that's why I said it's not realistic.

I don’t think Kobe threads are inherently bad, I think kobes probably one of the most interesting guys in terms of trying to figure out how good he was in an absolute sense vs in era, and how high his in era impact actually was during his #24 prime since I think there’s a decent amount of evidence that stats like RAPM underrate him in the sense of I guess “artifacts” (not really the right thing but) kind of detracting from him

But like a lot of it gets drowned out by Kobe haters or Kobe stans one way or another

Dutchball97 wrote:

Stalwart wrote:Kobe was one of the consistently best defenders at the guard position throughout his prime. He was an elite man to man defender in particular.

You know the RealGM won't give Kobe credit for anything but he was a great defender and was recognized as such.

If you have any statistical evidence that'd be great tbh.

Cmon man. We all know there are no stats that accurately measure a players defensive impact least of all guards. You have to actually watch the games. Or you could consider the testimony of so many NBA players over the years that he was a monster defender.

I recently rewatched Game 4 of the Lakers-Kings series from 2002. The one where Horry hit the big shot. One thing I noticed was that in the 1st half Mike Bibby was destroying the Lakers. He was just carving them up. Starting in the 3rd Quarter Kobe started picking up Bibby full court, every single play, for the entire 2nd half. And guess what? He completely shut him down. His defense on Bibby was the single biggest factor that allowed LA to make that historic comeback. Without it they would have lost the game, the series, and the title.

Thats the type of stuff Kobe consistently did throughout his career. Consistently guarded the best player on the opposing team. He could elevate his defensive game the same way he could offensively when needed. He could lock in on players and take them out the game. He could make the big defensive plays at crucial moments in the game.

It is true that he began to take plays off defensively and gamble more often when he got to his mid to late prime. But even then he was still a good to great defender with the capacity to raise his defensive impact when needed.

Dutchball97 wrote:It's not realistic but a ban on all Kobe threads would probably improve the quality of the board by a lot. It's just the same roundabout every time. People question Kobe's defense because statistically his impact doesn't line up with his accolades and then Kobe fans come in saying of course Kobe is an amazing defender because they love him so he must be.

I think its quite dishonest to put the blame on "Kobe fans". Its the Kobe haters that drive polarity and toxicity. You will see a Kobe critic make a thread or post criticizing him, usually unfairly. You'll then see one or two posters make a case or defense for Kobe. You'll then see 10 haters flood the thread with conplaints about Kobe fans ruining everything.

Its all projection in other words. The problem with Kobe are the haters not the fans.

Stalwart wrote:

Dutchball97 wrote:

Stalwart wrote:Kobe was one of the consistently best defenders at the guard position throughout his prime. He was an elite man to man defender in particular.

You know the RealGM won't give Kobe credit for anything but he was a great defender and was recognized as such.

If you have any statistical evidence that'd be great tbh.

Cmon man. We all know there are no stats that accurately measure a players defensive impact least of all guards. You have to actually watch the games. Or you could consider the testimony of so many NBA players over the years that he was a monster defender.

I recently rewatched Game 4 of the Lakers-Kings series from 2002. The one where Horry hit the big shot. One thing I noticed was that in the 1st half Mike Bibby was destroying the Lakers. He was just carving them up. Starting in the 3rd Quarter Kobe started picking up Bibby full court, every single play, for the entire 2nd half. And guess what? He completely shut him down. His defense on Bibby was the single biggest factor that allowed LA to make that historic comeback. Without it they would have lost the game, the series, and the title.

Thats the type of stuff Kobe consistently did throughout his career. Consistently guarded the best player on the opposing team. He could elevate his defensive game the same way he could offensively when needed. He could lock in on players and take them out the game. He could make the big defensive plays at crucial moments in the game.

It is true that he began to take plays off defensively and gamble more often when he got to his mid to late prime. But even then he was still a good to great defender with the capacity to raise his defensive impact when needed.

From all Kobes PO games and PO series you choose this one? Really?

SpreeS wrote:

Stalwart wrote:

Dutchball97 wrote:
If you have any statistical evidence that'd be great tbh.

Cmon man. We all know there are no stats that accurately measure a players defensive impact least of all guards. You have to actually watch the games. Or you could consider the testimony of so many NBA players over the years that he was a monster defender.

I recently rewatched Game 4 of the Lakers-Kings series from 2002. The one where Horry hit the big shot. One thing I noticed was that in the 1st half Mike Bibby was destroying the Lakers. He was just carving them up. Starting in the 3rd Quarter Kobe started picking up Bibby full court, every single play, for the entire 2nd half. And guess what? He completely shut him down. His defense on Bibby was the single biggest factor that allowed LA to make that historic comeback. Without it they would have lost the game, the series, and the title.

Thats the type of stuff Kobe consistently did throughout his career. Consistently guarded the best player on the opposing team. He could elevate his defensive game the same way he could offensively when needed. He could lock in on players and take them out the game. He could make the big defensive plays at crucial moments in the game.

It is true that he began to take plays off defensively and gamble more often when he got to his mid to late prime. But even then he was still a good to great defender with the capacity to raise his defensive impact when needed.

From all Kobes PO games and PO series you choose this one? Really?

You see Dutch. ^ Thats an example of the toxicity of the Kobe haters. He's not challenging anything Im saying. He's not providing a counter argument. Hes not agreeing or disagreeing. He's instead posting smileys and lols trying to a mockery out of a Kobe fan. This is why Kobe threads and topics always devolve. Its the haters.