Where do you rank Iceman offensively all-time?

70sFan · Post #1 » by **70sFan** » Mon Aug 29, 2022 12:54 pm

I wonder where do you guys rank George Gervin all-time on offense? Does he have a case for top 20-25? Do you think he's historically underrated? Do you think he had some limitations that put him below all-time great tier?

Here is my video breakdown of his scoring game:

Watch on YouTube

SickMother · Post #2 » by **SickMother** » Mon Aug 29, 2022 1:44 pm

No-more-rings · Post #3 » by **No-more-rings** » Mon Aug 29, 2022 1:54 pm

Not sure. I can see maybe top 40 or so at best.

Owly · Post #4 » by **Owly** » Mon Aug 29, 2022 2:46 pm

SickMother wrote:Top 25-30 would seem to be the ceiling for me.

BBRef doesn't have aggregate leaderboards for TS+ and TS Add, but going through some individual player pages for all time great scorers, here are their peak (p) and career (c) totals tiered by career TS Add...

Kareem (121 pTS+ | 460 pTS Add | 114 cTS+ | 4719 cTS Add)

Artis (131 pTS+ | 354 pTS Add | 118 cTS+ | 3880 cTS Add)
Wilt (129 pTS+ | 442 pTS Add | 113 cTS+ | 3587 cTS Add)
Oscar (119 pTS+ | 393 pTS Add | 115 cTS+ | 3519 cTS Add)
Reggie (122 pTS+ | 339 pTS Add | 116 cTS+ | 3450 cTS Add)
Dantley (120 pTS+ | 405 pTS Add | 115 cTS+ | 3110 cTS Add)

Barkley (124 pTS+ | 434 pTS Add | 114 cTS+ | 2973 cTS Add)
Durant (121 pTS+ | 395 pTS Add | 113 cTS+ | 2919 cTS Add)
Mailman (117 pTS+ | 363 pTS Add | 109 cTS+ | 2914 cTS Add)
LeBron (120 pTS+ | 347 pTS Add | 108 cTS+ | 2834 cTS Add)
O'Neal (116 pTS+ | 303 pTS Add | 111 cTS+ | 2759 cTS Add)
J West (120 pTS+ | 374 pTS Add | 112 cTS+ | 2687 cTS Add)
Steph (124 pTS+ | 455 pTS Add | 114 cTS+ | 2432 cTS Add)
Dirk N (116 pTS+ | 247 pTS Add | 108 cTS+ | 2351 cTS Add)
Harden (125 pTS+ | 259 pTS Add | 111 cTS+ | 2320 cTS Add)
Jordan through 1998 (114 pTS+ | 330 pTS Add | 108 cTS+ | 2193 cTS Add) (with Wizards included 1943.8)
R Allen (118 pTS+ | 272 pTS Add | 110 cTS+ | 2130 cTS Add)

Moses (116 pTS+ | 250 pTS Add | 107 cTS+ | 1888 cTS Add)
Admiral (115 pTS+ | 276 pTS Add | 110 cTS+ | 1861 cTS Add)
Pierce (115 pTS+ | 192 pTS Add | 107 cTS+ | 1772 cTS Add)
Pettit (114 pTS+ | 251 pTS Add | 109 cTS+ | 1758 cTS Add)
Gervin (118 pTS+ | 299 pTS Add | 107 cTS+ | 1688 cTS Add)
Erving (110 pTS+ | 223 pTS Add | 106 cTS+ | 1671 cTS Add)
Kobe B (107 pTS+ | 161 pTS Add | 104 cTS+ | 1122 cTS Add)
Larry B (114 pTS+ | 262 pTS Add | 105 cTS+ | 1055 cTS Add)

There's 25 guys there & that doesn't include point guards like Magic, Paul, Stockton, Nash, etc who's primary offensive value comes from creation.

Most of those playmakers fit in your tier 3 just off scoring too
Stockton 2465.6
Nash 2127.5
Johnson 2098.5

Paul, more driven by turnover economy with above average volume and high assists, gets in near the lower end of the bottom tier, at 1341.6.

Bellamy 2362.0
McHale 1920.4
Howell 1891.1
Howard 1855.4
Mullin 1797.6
and Issel 1735.7
all also slide in above Gervin

with Arizin, Johnston, Lanier, Walker, Parish, Vandeweghe and Bobby Jones within the circa 1600 to circa 1500 range (a generous interpretation might include Zelmo Beaty). Mikan is at 1205.7 in a shorter season era and with roughly 1.5 (otoh) NBL seasons not included.

Added a note to the MJ section.

Obviously this is just one measure.

MyUniBroDavis · Post #5 » by **MyUniBroDavis** » Mon Aug 29, 2022 2:56 pm

70sFan wrote:I wonder where do you guys rank George Gervin all-time on offense? Does he have a case for top 20-25? Do you think he's historically underrated? Do you think he had some limitations that put him below all-time great tier?

Here is my video breakdown of his scoring game:

Watch on YouTube

Ranking Gervin offensively is interesting honestly

in his NBA years, here were the offense’s ranking every year

1977 3rd
1978 2nd
1979 3rd
1980 3rd
1981 4th
1982 3rd
1983 2nd
1984 3rd
1985 8th (last all star season)
1986 8th (chicago)

It’s kinda hard to measure his impact specifically offensively, but his scoring numbers during his prime were incredible of course, and even though his assist numbers aren’t super high or anything I don’t think he was a black hole or anything his off ball scoring game was great right?

At the very least though the team results are really good overall, so it’s not like he has the dantley problem.

His wowy isn’t great but it’s such a small sample too

BenoUdrihFTL · Post #6 » by **BenoUdrihFTL** » Mon Aug 29, 2022 3:11 pm

I'm not too familiar with Gervin's game but what really jumps out to me on paper (aside from his individual numbers) is San Antonio's offensive performance throughout Gervin's prime. Beginning with their inaugural NBA season in 1976-77 (Gervin age 24) the Spurs offense reeled off an 8 year run ranked 3rd, 2nd, 3rd, 3rd, 4th, 3rd, 2nd and 3rd while Gervin led the league in scoring 4 times. Were those Spurs just loaded with offensive talent or was Gervin performing some crazy carry jobs despite not being known as much of a playmaker? In either case, routinely being able to score at such volume within the context of a top 3 offensive team is incredibly impressive in itself

AEnigma · Post #7 » by **AEnigma** » Mon Aug 29, 2022 3:15 pm

Are we saying career or peak? Career he fares better (top twenty-five?) because he is no longer immediately losing to guys like Penny or D-Will (although D-Will had a decent enough prime for it to still be a conversation). Peak, I count at least sixteen names on SM’s list I would take over Gervin, plus pretty much any top tier point guard or playmaker. Because playmaking for others is definitely his weakness relative to most other offensive greats.

Also, he was a driving force on his teams… but he had nice (and under-appreciated) point guards as well as good secondary support (Kenon or Mitchell), so I do not think it is as if he alone could have led those types of offences in place of your Walter Davises or your Paul Westphals or your David Thompsons or your Otis Birdsongs or what have you.

70sFan · Post #8 » by **70sFan** » Mon Aug 29, 2022 3:46 pm

No-more-rings wrote:Not sure. I can see maybe top 40 or so at best.

I think you highly underestimate him then. I mean, he's at worst top 15 scorer ever who anchored elite offenses without elite talent around him and he sustained his production in postseason. He wasn't a great playmaker, but had a lot of value off-ball and was excellent shooter.

He has a case for top 40 player overall, let alone offensively.

70sFan · Post #9 » by **70sFan** » Mon Aug 29, 2022 3:51 pm

AEnigma wrote:Are we saying career or peak? Career he fares better (top twenty-five?) because he is no longer immediately losing to guys like Penny or D-Will (although D-Will had a decent enough prime for it to still be a conversation). Peak, I count at least sixteen names on SM’s list I would take over Gervin, plus pretty much any top tier point guard or playmaker. Because playmaking for others is definitely his weakness relative to most other offensive greats.

I think primes is the best way to do that here. I'm not really interested in some outlier peak seasons that could be argued either way.

I think his playmaking is a relative weakness, but at the same time he's one of the best off-ball players of his generation and he fit extremely well with any kind of offensive stars - point guards (Silas), athletic forwards (Kenon) and post players (Gilmore later).

Also, he was a driving force on his teams… but he had nice (and under-appreciated) point guards as well as good secondary support (Kenon or Mitchell), so I do not think it is as if he alone could have led those types of offences in place of your Walter Davises or your Paul Westphals or your David Thompsons or your Otis Birdsongs or what have you.

I mean, Davis and Westphal played together and both were better than Silas or Kenon. Thompson also had a lot of talent around him. Birdsong wasn't on that level.

70sFan · Post #10 » by **70sFan** » Mon Aug 29, 2022 3:52 pm

MyUniBroDavis wrote:
70sFan wrote:I wonder where do you guys rank George Gervin all-time on offense? Does he have a case for top 20-25? Do you think he's historically underrated? Do you think he had some limitations that put him below all-time great tier?

Here is my video breakdown of his scoring game:

Watch on YouTube

Ranking Gervin offensively is interesting honestly

in his NBA years, here were the offense’s ranking every year

1977 3rd
1978 2nd
1979 3rd
1980 3rd
1981 4th
1982 3rd
1983 2nd
1984 3rd
1985 8th (last all star season)
1986 8th (chicago)

It’s kinda hard to measure his impact specifically offensively, but his scoring numbers during his prime were incredible of course, and even though his assist numbers aren’t super high or anything I don’t think he was a black hole or anything his off ball scoring game was great right?

At the very least though the team results are really good overall, so it’s not like he has the dantley problem.

His wowy isn’t great but it’s such a small sample too

Yeah, he was an off-ball scorer who fit nicely with ball-dominant players.

His WOWY is basically meaningless, as his sample is almost non-existant.

MyUniBroDavis · Post #11 » by **MyUniBroDavis** » Mon Aug 29, 2022 4:01 pm

70sFan wrote:
MyUniBroDavis wrote:
70sFan wrote:I wonder where do you guys rank George Gervin all-time on offense? Does he have a case for top 20-25? Do you think he's historically underrated? Do you think he had some limitations that put him below all-time great tier?

Here is my video breakdown of his scoring game:

Watch on YouTube

Ranking Gervin offensively is interesting honestly

in his NBA years, here were the offense’s ranking every year

1977 3rd
1978 2nd
1979 3rd
1980 3rd
1981 4th
1982 3rd
1983 2nd
1984 3rd
1985 8th (last all star season)
1986 8th (chicago)

It’s kinda hard to measure his impact specifically offensively, but his scoring numbers during his prime were incredible of course, and even though his assist numbers aren’t super high or anything I don’t think he was a black hole or anything his off ball scoring game was great right?

At the very least though the team results are really good overall, so it’s not like he has the dantley problem.

His wowy isn’t great but it’s such a small sample too

Yeah, he was an off-ball scorer who fit nicely with ball-dominant players.

His WOWY is basically meaningless, as his sample is almost non-existant.

Yeah P much, it’s like 15 games over 10 years lol

I won’t pretend to know his team situation all too well every year, but a top 2-4 offense every year for a 7 year prime just does seem really impressive

There’s more to it than that of course, but in terms of that level of consistent offensive team effeciency for a players prime you’re talking like the best offensive guys ever. Not saying gervin is there, but I do think that his offensive impact must have been pretty great

Owly · Post #12 » by **Owly** » Mon Aug 29, 2022 4:36 pm

70sFan wrote:
AEnigma wrote:Are we saying career or peak? Career he fares better (top twenty-five?) because he is no longer immediately losing to guys like Penny or D-Will (although D-Will had a decent enough prime for it to still be a conversation). Peak, I count at least sixteen names on SM’s list I would take over Gervin, plus pretty much any top tier point guard or playmaker. Because playmaking for others is definitely his weakness relative to most other offensive greats.

I think primes is the best way to do that here. I'm not really interested in some outlier peak seasons that could be argued either way.

I think his playmaking is a relative weakness, but at the same time he's one of the best off-ball players of his generation and he fit extremely well with any kind of offensive stars - point guards (Silas), athletic forwards (Kenon) and post players (Gilmore later).

Also, he was a driving force on his teams… but he had nice (and under-appreciated) point guards as well as good secondary support (Kenon or Mitchell), so I do not think it is as if he alone could have led those types of offences in place of your Walter Davises or your Paul Westphals or your David Thompsons or your Otis Birdsongs or what have you.

I mean, Davis and Westphal played together and both were better than Silas or Kenon. Thompson also had a lot of talent around him. Birdsong wasn't on that level.

At a very superficial glance at the first few Spurs (NBA) teams, efg% seemed the main driver of their goodness (less important in general and lower ranking but still good was free throw among 4 factors).

In that era more than later Gervin was posting the big TS adds ... without deep knowledge about what's "normal" they didn't seem to have many players in negative TS add and those that were weren't deep in. Not saying it's necessarily deep "solidness", could be coaching (Moe?) or whoever's creating the looks, attracting attention etc.

AEnigma · Post #13 » by **AEnigma** » Mon Aug 29, 2022 4:50 pm

70sFan wrote:
AEnigma wrote:Are we saying career or peak? Career he fares better (top twenty-five?) because he is no longer immediately losing to guys like Penny or D-Will (although D-Will had a decent enough prime for it to still be a conversation). Peak, I count at least sixteen names on SM’s list I would take over Gervin, plus pretty much any top tier point guard or playmaker. Because playmaking for others is definitely his weakness relative to most other offensive greats.

I think primes is the best way to do that here. I'm not really interested in some outlier peak seasons that could be argued either way.

I think his playmaking is a relative weakness, but at the same time he's one of the best off-ball players of his generation and he fit extremely well with any kind of offensive stars - point guards (Silas), athletic forwards (Kenon) and post players (Gilmore later).

How do you think that compares to guys like Mitch Richmond or Chris Mullin? In the absolute; Gervin of course stood out more in his time, although even if I were factoring in eras I do not think I would have him top twenty. I would take Barry over Gervin without a second thought, and it is not because I prefer Barry as a scorer; the only guys who I have as top offensive forces with Gervin’s level of playmaking are Reggie and Ray (and they have elite s p a c i n g and plenty of data we can analyse affirming that they significantly elevated their team offences).

Also, he was a driving force on his teams… but he had nice (and under-appreciated) point guards as well as good secondary support (Kenon or Mitchell), so I do not think it is as if he alone could have led those types of offences in place of your Walter Davises or your Paul Westphals or your David Thompsons or your Otis Birdsongs or what have you.

I mean, Davis and Westphal played together and both were better than Silas or Kenon. Thompson also had a lot of talent around him. Birdsong wasn't on that level.

Birdsong was at that level for two or three years, but regardless, Gervin had the most offensively inclined roster of them all. Alex English saw even more offensive success but I would not say he was definitely better than Gervin because of it. I am inclined to choose Gervin over all of their respective best stretches, but not clearly.

No-more-rings · Post #14 » by **No-more-rings** » Mon Aug 29, 2022 4:54 pm

70sFan wrote:
No-more-rings wrote:Not sure. I can see maybe top 40 or so at best.

I think you highly underestimate him then. I mean, he's at worst top 15 scorer ever who anchored elite offenses without elite talent around him and he sustained his production in postseason. He wasn't a great playmaker, but had a lot of value off-ball and was excellent shooter.

He has a case for top 40 player overall, let alone offensively.

That was an off the cuff estimate, I didn’t really look into yet. I’ll take a look and get back, you may be right.

Dutchball97 · Post #15 » by **Dutchball97** » Mon Aug 29, 2022 4:55 pm

I don't think top 25 is impossible to argue, although I'd probably have him closer to 30.

70sFan · Post #16 » by **70sFan** » Mon Aug 29, 2022 5:05 pm

AEnigma wrote:How do you think that compares to guys like Mitch Richmond or Chris Mullin? In the absolute; Gervin of course stood out more in his time,

I don't think Richmond is particulary close. Mullin is a bit better, but I would have to see a strong evidences for him having a massive offensive imapct to put him ahead.

although even if I were factoring in eras I do not think I would have him top twenty. I would take Barry over Gervin without a second thought, and it is not because I prefer Barry as a scorer;

I think Barry definitely has a case over Gervin offensively, although it's not that clear cut.

the only guys who I have as top offensive forces with Gervin’s level of playmaking are Reggie and Ray (and they have elite s p a c i n g and plenty of data we can analyse affirming that they significantly elevated their team offences).

I think quite a few top tier offensive bigs weren't better playmakers than Gervin.

Lack of data is always concerning, but it doesn't mean we shouldn't try to get a better look via watching games.

Birdsong was at that level for two or three years,

In what way? Even in the most crude boxscore estimates, he doesn't touch Gervin and when you start analyzing their skillset, team results and overall context it's even clearer that these two are not in the same tier.

Birdsong was just a semi all-star level player. Gervin was a generational scorer with very scalable skillset.

but regardless, Gervin had the most offensively inclined roster of them all.

I don't think it's clear. Suns had a lot of offensive talent in the late 1970s.

Alex English saw even more offensive success but I would not say he was definitely better than Gervin because of it. I am inclined to choose Gervin over all of their respective best stretches, but not clearly.

But those Spurs teams didn't go all offense, sacrificing defense. They were average defensively during his best seasons.

Alex English was significantly better player than Birdsong or Richmond as well.

AEnigma · Post #17 » by **AEnigma** » Mon Aug 29, 2022 5:16 pm

70sFan wrote:In what way? Even in the most crude boxscore estimates, he doesn't touch Gervin and when you start analyzing their skillset, team results and overall context it's even clearer that these two are not in the same tier.

Birdsong was just a semi all-star level player. Gervin was a generational scorer with very scalable skillset.

How was Birdsong not scalable? What specifically disappointed you in his team results? I agree he was not a comparable scorer, barring maybe 1981 specifically (but that was not Gervin’s peak anyway), but he was a decent passer with good range and an accompanying off-ball game.

I think quite a few top tier offensive bigs weren't better playmakers than Gervin.

Not apart from Moses (who had his own stretch anchoring strong defences).

Lack of data is always concerning, but it doesn't mean we shouldn't try to get a better look via watching games.

Okay, watching the games I do not think Gervin does a better job than Reggie or Ray. More specifically in the postseason for Reggie.

but regardless, Gervin had the most offensively inclined roster of them all.

I don't think it's clear. Suns had a lot of offensive talent in the late 1970s.

Eh, they had a good top two plus Alvan Adams, but guys like Truck and Buse and to my eye most of the bench skew a lot harder toward defence.

He has a case for top 40 player overall, let alone offensively.

If he does that is more for longevity; I would definitely not give him a top forty prime overall. I said on offence there were at least sixteen or so names among scorers (more like twenty because of the guys who were excluded from the list), and it is not that tough to hit twenty more playmakers — and if we are talking overall then you start adding in all the top defenders.

70sFan · Post #18 » by **70sFan** » Mon Aug 29, 2022 5:24 pm

AEnigma wrote:How was Birdsong not scalable?

I didn't say he wasn't scalable, but his skills were on significantly lower level than Gervin.

What specifically disappointed you in his team results?

For starters, he never lead good offenses. He mostly played on either mediocre offensive teams or poor ones that were strictly defensive oriented.

I agree he was not a comparable scorer, barring maybe 1981 specifically (but that was not Gervin’s peak anyway), but he was a decent passer with good range and an accompanying off-ball game.

Even in 1981, he wasn't close to Gervin and that was his weakest scoring season of his prime.

Eh, they had a good top two plus Alvan Adams, but guys like Truck and Buse and to my eye most of the bench skew a lot harder toward defence.

Buse was defensive oriented (Truck not so much), but they weren't bad offensive players, quite the opposite in fact.

No-more-rings · Post #19 » by **No-more-rings** » Mon Aug 29, 2022 5:33 pm

No-more-rings wrote:
70sFan wrote:
No-more-rings wrote:Not sure. I can see maybe top 40 or so at best.

I think you highly underestimate him then. I mean, he's at worst top 15 scorer ever who anchored elite offenses without elite talent around him and he sustained his production in postseason. He wasn't a great playmaker, but had a lot of value off-ball and was excellent shooter.

He has a case for top 40 player overall, let alone offensively.

That was an off the cuff estimate, I didn’t really look into yet. I’ll take a look and get back, you may be right.

Just going by the last top 100 project here's the guys who went ahead, i'll bold the ones I see as better offensively.

1. LeBron James
2. Michael Jordan
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
4. Bill Russell
5. Tim Duncan
6. Wilt Chamberlain
7. Magic Johnson
8. Shaquille O'Neal
9. Hakeem Olajuwon
10. Larry Bird
11. Kevin Garnett
12. Kobe Bryant
13. Jerry West
14. Oscar Robertson
15. Dirk Nowitzki
16. Karl Malone
17. David Robinson
18. Julius Erving
19. George Mikan
20. Moses Malone
21. Charles Barkley
22. Kevin Durant
23. Chris Paul
24. Stephen Curry
25. Bob Pettit
26. John Stockton
27. Steve Nash
28. Dwyane Wade
29. Patrick Ewing
30. Walt Frazier
31. James Harden
32. Scottie Pippen
33. Elgin Baylor
34. John Havlicek
35. Rick Barry
36. Jason Kidd

So that's 24 names right there. I'd also take Westbrook, Kawhi and Jokic from newer players. That's 27. I'm uncertain about Rick Barry, I might add Miller to that list. The longevity is lacking some, but you could argue Davis too or maybe Tmac. So I don't think it's crazy at all to say he isn't top 30. Not an in-depth analysis or anything, but top 25 seems a bit of a stretch for me.

AEnigma · Post #20 » by **AEnigma** » Mon Aug 29, 2022 5:35 pm

70sFan wrote:
What specifically disappointed you in his team results?

For starters, he never lead good offenses. He mostly played on either mediocre offensive teams or poor ones that were strictly defensive oriented.

And you feel he should have?

I agree he was not a comparable scorer, barring maybe 1981 specifically (but that was not Gervin’s peak anyway), but he was a decent passer with good range and an accompanying off-ball game.

Even in 1981, he wasn't close to Gervin and that was his weakest scoring season of his prime.

Not close how? Gervin scored three points more on worse efficiency. It was an outlier year for both, but this feels needlessly stubborn.

Eh, they had a good top two plus Alvan Adams, but guys like Truck and Buse and to my eye most of the bench skew a lot harder toward defence.

Truck and Buse were defensive oriented, but they weren't bad offensive players, quite the opposite in fact.

Buse was a good passer but made Johnny Moore look like an aggressive scorer. Truck was fine enough as a play finisher, but if that is the standard then most starters on competent teams are “good”, and in any case his archetype fits worse with Gervin than with Walter Davis.