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Some all time players had their best offense and best defense peak around the same time. Possible examples: Jordan, Duncan, KG, Erving.

Other players had their best offense and best defense come in different seasons. This can have the advantage of extending the height of your prime, at the cost of your single-year peak. Possible examples: Kawhi, Hakeem, LeBron, Kobe, Bird.

Who are some players that had their offensive and defensive peaks overlap, and who are some players that didn’t?

Who would gain the most by combining their offensive and defensive peaks into the same season(s)? How much higher would they be ranked in all-time lists?

Probably Kareem, who peaked offensively in late 1970s, while being at his peak defensively in the early 1970s.

70sFan wrote:Probably Kareem, who peaked offensively in late 1970s, while being at his peak defensively in the early 1970s.

I’d also say Kareem. Also an interesting player to consider would be Larry Bird as his offensive game continued to evolve with a quicker trigger on his jumpshot, a better flow on off the dribble jump-shots in 1987 and 1988 but his defense fell off due to lost athleticism lesser motor due to injuries and wear and tear. Imagine the motor of a younger Bird with the offensive capability of a three-point shooting Bird.

Most players tbh, i think is relatively rare for offense and defense to peak simultaneously in all time greats

The amount of energy needed to play 100% defense and offense makes it really tricky too. A player may have the capacity but not the stamina to do both

To me it's Kawhi. The level he was on as a perimeter defender was ridiculous.

Wilt. One of the few players that was All-NBA as a superstar scorer (though still a good defender, but one who didn't move away from the basket much and conserved energy at times while playing ridiculous minutes), but also an All-NBA defensive specialist who rarely shot the ball.

Honorable mentions that no one has brought up yet:

Artis Gilmore with his ABA level defense and the ridiculous efficiency he scored at in Chicago though a lot of that was at the cost of spacing and shooting more midrange.

Caldwell Jones in his NBA prime barely scored at all while playing outstanding defense; but in his early ABA years, he was a 20 ppg scorer with decent efficiency.

Bill Cartwright is another who switched from scorer to defensive specialist as his career progressed.

LeBron for me, 17-18’s offense with 12-13’s defense? I think the defensive advantage puts him over peak MJ

Dooley wrote:To me it's Kawhi. The level he was on as a perimeter defender was ridiculous.

Tend to agree.

Some good names here with Bird and Kareem.

But Kawhi was actually as good as Draymond on defense at his best. He just wasn’t resilient enough to sustain across all matchups like him.

Though 2017 Kawhi was the last year before his degenerative condition flared up, he had most of his abilities altogether. He just didn’t play hard on defense until the playoffs.

2017 Kawhi was pretty close to the two-way peak IMO. A cyborg on offense with seemingly unlimited volume creation and elite defense both as point of attack and helper.

It was the highest level of basketball I think I’ve ever seen from any player.

ShotCreator wrote:

Dooley wrote:To me it's Kawhi. The level he was on as a perimeter defender was ridiculous.

Tend to agree.

Some good names here with Bird and Kareem.

But Kawhi was actually as good as Draymond on defense at his best. He just wasn’t resilient enough to sustain across all matchups like him.

Though 2017 Kawhi was the last year before his degenerative condition flared up, he had most of his abilities altogether. He just didn’t play hard on defense until the playoffs.

2017 Kawhi was pretty close to the two-way peak IMO. A cyborg on offense with seemingly unlimited volume creation and elite defense both as point of attack and helper.

It was the highest level of basketball I think I’ve ever seen from any player.

This is high praise. I love your description.

Agree with Kawhi.

Some other names that come to mind:
- Vince Carter. He became a very solid team defender pretty late in his career. Early in his career he had some of the worst lateral movement, hip flexibility I'd ever seen from an athlete like that. Make him a crafty veteran defender with his offensive peak? Might have had an MVP calibre season.
- Kobe. Large pesky POA defender who also is an offensive fulcrum?
- Andrew Bogut. He was such an evil genius on defense in those Golden State years. Had he just been competent like he was as a young player (pre-injury), essentially just able to shoot those hook shots on mismatches and not be afraid of finishing... might have been an all-NBA center.
- Serge Ibaka. A 38% 3-point shooter who averages 7 blocks per 100 and also has a nice floater game?

Brook Lopez probably gains the most with his unique career arc. Not KG/Duncan or anything, but maybe Elvin Hayes level?

Marc Gasol - 20ppg 3pt shooting version + DPOY.

cupcakesnake wrote:- Andrew Bogut. He was such an evil genius on defense in those Golden State years. Had he just been competent like he was as a young player (pre-injury), essentially just able to shoot those hook shots on mismatches and not be afraid of finishing... might have been an all-NBA center.

I felt like during his offensive peak he was pretty close on defense to his Warriors years.

cupcakesnake wrote:Agree with Kawhi.

Some other names that come to mind:
- Vince Carter. He became a very solid team defender pretty late in his career. Early in his career he had some of the worst lateral movement, hip flexibility I'd ever seen from an athlete like that. Make him a crafty veteran defender with his offensive peak? Might have had an MVP calibre season.
- Kobe. Large pesky POA defender who also is an offensive fulcrum?
- Andrew Bogut. He was such an evil genius on defense in those Golden State years. Had he just been competent like he was as a young player (pre-injury), essentially just able to shoot those hook shots on mismatches and not be afraid of finishing... might have been an all-NBA center.
- Serge Ibaka. A 38% 3-point shooter who averages 7 blocks per 100 and also has a nice floater game?

With kawhi i have to wonder how realistic it is for him to play as a offense first option at his peak level while playing 100% on defense too?

Like there is a unrealistic level of mental and physicsl stamina needed for that. Which is why in 2017 when he still had his peak athletism and was starting his offensive peak too we didnt see anythingh remotely close to 100% of his defense value

Dr Positivity wrote:

cupcakesnake wrote:- Andrew Bogut. He was such an evil genius on defense in those Golden State years. Had he just been competent like he was as a young player (pre-injury), essentially just able to shoot those hook shots on mismatches and not be afraid of finishing... might have been an all-NBA center.

I felt like during his offensive peak he was pretty close on defense to his Warriors years.

Watching Bogut, I always found he had a strong motor in his Milwaukee days and was a better athlete. But in Golden State he became much smarter on the backline. Also his bag of dirty tricks was fuller at that stage in his career. It could just be that he was on a better defense and playing less minutes. There's nothing definitive to say that young Bogut was definitely a worse defender than older Bogut.

Dr Positivity wrote:Brook Lopez probably gains the most with his unique career arc. Not KG/Duncan or anything, but maybe Elvin Hayes level?

Marc Gasol - 20ppg 3pt shooting version + DPOY.

Brook Lopez is one of the best answers so far. Post-scoring hub and dark horse DPOY candidate sounds like Patrick Ewing.

Marc Gasol I'm not sure his defense dropped off after his DPOY season. As late as 2019 he still looked like one of the best defenders in the league.

falcolombardi wrote:

cupcakesnake wrote:Agree with Kawhi.

Some other names that come to mind:
- Vince Carter. He became a very solid team defender pretty late in his career. Early in his career he had some of the worst lateral movement, hip flexibility I'd ever seen from an athlete like that. Make him a crafty veteran defender with his offensive peak? Might have had an MVP calibre season.
- Kobe. Large pesky POA defender who also is an offensive fulcrum?
- Andrew Bogut. He was such an evil genius on defense in those Golden State years. Had he just been competent like he was as a young player (pre-injury), essentially just able to shoot those hook shots on mismatches and not be afraid of finishing... might have been an all-NBA center.
- Serge Ibaka. A 38% 3-point shooter who averages 7 blocks per 100 and also has a nice floater game?

With kawhi i have to wonder how realistic it is for him to play as a offense first option at his peak level while playing 100% on defense too?

Like there is a unrealistic level of mental and physicsl stamina needed for that. Which is why in 2017 when he still had his peak athletism and was starting his offensive peak too we didnt see anythingh remotely close to 100% of his defense value

I think this is probably true of any big heavy-load star in this exercise though right?

Kareem
Hakeem
Jordan
Leonard
Lebron
Wilt
Kobe

I definitely don't see LeBron improving the most out of this group, but even a relatively smaller improvement of would pretty much cement his GOAT-peak case.

For Wilt / Hakeem / Kareem, I see this improvement as enough to put them into GOAT peak contention, though not enough to make them the clear GOAT peaks by a clear margin. [going by their current placement on our Greatest peaks list]. Personally, I have peak Wilt > Kareem > Hakeem, but in improvement I see Wilt's improvement ~ Hakeem's improvement > Kareem's.

I wonder, how much do Bird / Kobe / Leonard improve on the Greatest Peaks list...
Would defense-booted Bird be in contention with peak Shaq/Kareem?

Would defense-boosted Kobe be enough to beat peak Russell?

Would defense-boosted Kawhi be enough to compete with peak Magic?

cupcakesnake wrote:

falcolombardi wrote:

cupcakesnake wrote:Agree with Kawhi.

Some other names that come to mind:
- Vince Carter. He became a very solid team defender pretty late in his career. Early in his career he had some of the worst lateral movement, hip flexibility I'd ever seen from an athlete like that. Make him a crafty veteran defender with his offensive peak? Might have had an MVP calibre season.
- Kobe. Large pesky POA defender who also is an offensive fulcrum?
- Andrew Bogut. He was such an evil genius on defense in those Golden State years. Had he just been competent like he was as a young player (pre-injury), essentially just able to shoot those hook shots on mismatches and not be afraid of finishing... might have been an all-NBA center.
- Serge Ibaka. A 38% 3-point shooter who averages 7 blocks per 100 and also has a nice floater game?

With kawhi i have to wonder how realistic it is for him to play as a offense first option at his peak level while playing 100% on defense too?

Like there is a unrealistic level of mental and physicsl stamina needed for that. Which is why in 2017 when he still had his peak athletism and was starting his offensive peak too we didnt see anythingh remotely close to 100% of his defense value

I think this is probably true of any big heavy-load star in this exercise though right?

Love the mention of the newer names, and I also appreciate the comment about stamina / motor!

Re: motor, I think motor and stamina are often underrated on defense, and to me they're some of the biggest things holding Kawhi's peak back. It's definitely realistic for someone to maintain peak Kawhi's level of energy on defense and offense, but I'm not sure it's realistic for Kawhi. Some players like Garnett, Curry, or Jordan might have high enough motor to maintain that kind of effort if they were put into Kawhi's body, but I don't see Kawhi as having quite the same motor/stamina as they do.

Regardless, at least for this exercise, I think you have to assume each player gets enough of a bump in motor/stamina to actually be able to maintain their peak offense and defense simultaneously.

Ewing gains.

I think more than Kareem it would be circa 2012 LeBron defense with 17/18 offense. Kareem is one of the few players who had an extended period where offense and defense overlapped for a prolonged period imo.

The best choices have already been mentioned so I'll throw Donovan Mitchell's name into the thread. He was actually known as a defender coming out of college and had a very good defensive rookie season. Cut to last season, his best offensively, and he was a terrible defender

2018: 1.68 DRAPM, 0.74 D-LEBRON
2022: -0.84 DRAPM, -1.55 D-LEBRON

If you combine 2022's offense with 2018's defense you'd have a top-5 caliber player with a 3.63 RAPM and 4.19 LEBRON