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Was watching some old Knicks game and got curious who y'all would take Derek Harper or Mike Conley I feel like they're close. I think going Conley his 2016 and 19 playoffs are better than any of Derek's though my boy Harper spent his best years on the 80's Mavericks.

If you're talking career, I'm not sure it could get much closer...

Harper RS: 86.8 WS | 35.7 VORP
Conley RS: 86.8 WS | 34.8 VORP

Conley put up those numbers in about 7,000 fewer minutes though so he's been more productive on a per minute basis, .134 WS/48 vs .110 WS/48 for Harper. Same story for playoff numbers, within fractions, though here Conley only played about 400 fewer minutes...

Harper PO: 6.5 WS | 3.2 VORP
Conley PO: 6.3 WS | 3.5 VORP

In terms of a peak season, I would probably lean Conley as well...

Harper 86-87: 20.0 PER | .561 TS% | 104 TS+ | 9.4 WS | .177 WS/48
Haroer 86-87 Playoffs?!?: 22.2 PER | .620 TS% | 0.5 WS | .192 WS/48

Conley 16-17: 23.2 PER | .604 TS% | 109 TS+ | 10.0 WS | .209 WS/48
Conley 16-17 Playoffs?!?: 27.4 PER | .620 TS% | 1.0 WS | .204 WS/48

Going back to career, Conley has slight advantages in TS+ (101 to 100), TO% (12.8 to 13.5), AST% (28.7 to 26.8) and FT rate (.281 to .256), but again by pretty small margins all things considered. Only area Conley really has a notable edge is making his free throws, .820 to .745 for Harper.

Good comparison, OP.

I tend to think of Conley as a slightly better offensive player, and Harp as the better defensive player. For those concerned about playing in different eras, Harp would have had to totally adjust how he defended on ball because he's probably the best hand checker in league history.

Harper, because of his defense.

I think two of the most underrated PGs of the mid- to late-1980s were Derek Harper and Fat Lever. Neither were 20+ pts/g / 10+ ast/g PGs like Magic Johnson or Isaiah Thomas but were close (17-19 pts/g and 7-8 ast/g) but both were really good shot defenders that forced turnovers at high rates. Lever didn't shoot as well as Harper but was an outrageously good rebounder for a small PG.

Not sure Lever was underrated, love him but he was not that good offensively and he has about one healthy prime season.

As for OP, I rate Conley a bit better.

Not sure Lever was underrated, love him but he was not that good offensively and he has about one healthy prime season.

Fat Lever from 1986-87 to 1989-90 (4 years):

- scored the 3rd most total points among all PGs (only Magic and Isiah scored more)
- had, by far, the most offensive rebounds among all PGs (836, no other PG had more than 488)
- had, by far, the most defensive rebounds among all PGs (1954, 300+ more than Magic)
- grabbed the 2nd most steals among all PGs (only Stockton had more)
- blocked the 7th most shots among PGs
- threw for the 8th most assists among all PGs
- played the 2nd most minutes among all PGs
- yet committed just the 14th most turnovers...

He was very good offensively during this time - compare him to Isiah Thomas these 4 years:

Thomas/Lever
11857/11692 minutes
6198/5950 points
2919/2369 assists
1236 / 662 turnovers
566 / 787 steals
1178 / 2790 rebounds

Thomas 37 min/g, 19.2 pts/g, 46.9% eFG%, 9.0 ast/g, 3.8 TO/g, 0.8 oreb/g, 2.8 dreb/g, 1.8 ST/g
Lever 37 min/g, 18.9 pts/g, 47.0 eFG%, 7.5 ast/g, 2.1 TO/g, 2.7 oreb/g, 6.2 dreb/g, 2.5 ST/g

Lever with similar scoring on similar shooting to Thomas over 4 seasons, but with far less turnovers and far more offensive rebounds.

kcktiny wrote:

Not sure Lever was underrated, love him but he was not that good offensively and he has about one healthy prime season.

Fat Lever from 1986-87 to 1989-90 (4 years):

- scored the 3rd most total points among all PGs (only Magic and Isiah scored more)
- had, by far, the most offensive rebounds among all PGs (836, no other PG had more than 488)
- had, by far, the most defensive rebounds among all PGs (1954, 300+ more than Magic)
- grabbed the 2nd most steals among all PGs (only Stockton had more)
- blocked the 7th most shots among PGs
- threw for the 8th most assists among all PGs
- played the 2nd most minutes among all PGs
- yet committed just the 14th most turnovers...

He was very good offensively during this time - compare him to Isiah Thomas these 4 years:

Thomas/Lever
11857/11692 minutes
6198/5950 points
2919/2369 assists
1236 / 662 turnovers
566 / 787 steals
1178 / 2790 rebounds

Thomas 37 min/g, 19.2 pts/g, 46.9% eFG%, 9.0 ast/g, 3.8 TO/g, 0.8 oreb/g, 2.8 dreb/g, 1.8 ST/g
Lever 37 min/g, 18.9 pts/g, 47.0 eFG%, 7.5 ast/g, 2.1 TO/g, 2.7 oreb/g, 6.2 dreb/g, 2.5 ST/g

Lever with similar scoring on similar shooting to Thomas over 4 seasons, but with far less turnovers and far more offensive rebounds.

And now look at the postseason (he routinely got a) locked down extremely badly b) injured c) both) and at their team offenses (not stellar, not short on help) and performances with/without him (not much change).

Dropping your offensive numbers a bit on the playoffs, or having a weak series... can happen, especially when being a focal point, but massively dropping performance every year of your prime from 23 pp100 @51.2 TS% to 20.3 pp100 @48.1 TS% while being the #2 to (old but still good offensively) Alex freaking English AND then getting injured anyway is a huge black mark.

Lever's offensive slashline is about as empty as it gets. Let's not even consider the blistering pace the Nuggets played at. He took excellent care of the ball (didn't seem to play much on ball though, but still), and that's his only elite quality. Wasn't much of a creator, good midrange shooter but overall a pretty weak scorer, and didn't have the hyperagression or miraculous vision of a Ricky Rubio / the craftiness of an Andre Miller to trick defenses. Not sure how valuable his o-rebounding is, but checking his teams' four factors and taking into account historical trends, I'd wager not much. Not an all-star level player on offense alone, imo. Putting him next to Magic or even Isiah is ridiculous.

Great defender, a magician on passing lanes, though.

I trust Harper in the clutch more.
I watched with the eyes and schedule of a Celtics fan and then as a Wariors fan.
Conley did not look good in the playoffs ve the Warriors in 2015.

2015 warriors had the highest d rating in the league that year. he missed game 1 as well I can't remember why though.

To your point, at this juncture, I'd have to take Conely,

Texas Chuck wrote:I tend to think of Conley as a slightly better offensive player, and Harp as the better defensive player. For those concerned about playing in different eras, Harp would have had to totally adjust how he defended on ball because he's probably the best hand checker in league history.

The NBA changed the handchecking rule preciscely because of the damage he did in the 94 Finals. As an admittedly young Knicks fan it was absurd watching a dude have that much impact handchecking.

sp6r=underrated wrote:The NBA changed the handchecking rule preciscely because of the damage he did in the 94 Finals. As an admittedly young Knicks fan it was absurd watching a dude have that much impact handchecking.

Heck yeah was 6 watching it with my bro. memories kinda cloudy though.