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Not marketing but who wins how many titles in the 80s if instead of those two, the two dominant teams drafted busts. Mdonnelly's thread about their supporting casts made me think about this. How would you project the 80s if those two either didn't play or LA and Boston were unable to draft them and they went to non-contenders? Does this become the era of Philadelphia dominance?

1980 Boston and LA were the best two teams but just barely in front of Philly with Seattle and Phoenix being the only other teams north of 50 wins.

1981 Philly tied Boston for best record with Milwaukee and Phoenix at better than 55 wins and LA only getting 54 plus San Antonio with 52.

1982 Boston has the best record again with Philly second and LA third, Milwaukee wins 55 and Seattle 52.

1983 Philly's title even in reality. Boston and LA next two, Phoenix, San Antonio, and Milwaukee in the 50-55 win range.

1984 Boston easily strongest with LA second. Philly drops to 52 wins, Milwaukee with 50.

1985 Boston/LA again but Milwaukee and Philly have 59 and 58 wins with Denver getting up to 52.

1986 Boston/LA with Milwaukee 3rd at 57 wins and Philly, Houston, and Atlanta just over the 50 win mark.

1987 LA/Boston with Atlanta and Dallas over 55 wins and Detroit and Milwaukee with 52 and 50.

1988 LA/Boston this time followed by Denver, Detroit, Dallas, Portland, and Atlanta in the 50-54 range.

1989 Bad Boys break through to best record and title. Cleveland, LA, Phoenix next three, Atlanta, New York, and Utah at 50+.

LA not being an elite contender means we get an era of Eastern Conference supremacy. Phili dynasty followed by a Bad Boys dynasty. Maybe Milwaukee sneaks through to 1-2 finals appearances and is remembered more as an iconic team.

Where do bird and magic end up?

Well if Bird and Magic are out of the NBA.

Then the 76ers win four titles in a row from 1980 to 1983 which swings Doctor J into the Goat debate.

Kareem also retires with one or two rings, which greatly harms his legacy in the Goat debate.

Bad boy's four-peat from 1987 to 1990 in the process ensuring that Zeke is remembered as a top two PG ever nowadays.

You don't think Kareem, Nixon, Wilkes, Cooper, and Chones/Rambis can get it done against Philly before Kareem ages into just a very good player from a great one? They even add Worthy for a couple of those years (though they probably don't trade Nixon for Scott without Magic on the team).

What about Parish, McHale, Maxwell, DJ, Henderson/Ainge? In 86 Maxwell is gone but they have Scott Wedman on the bench then sign 6th man Bill Walton. Any titles for the Celtics?

penbeast0 wrote:You don't think Kareem, Nixon, Wilkes, Cooper, and Chones/Rambis can get it done against Philly before Kareem ages into just a very good player from a great one? They even add Worthy for a couple of those years (though they probably don't trade Nixon for Scott without Magic on the team).

What about Parish, McHale, Maxwell, DJ, Henderson/Ainge? In 86 Maxwell is gone but they have Scott Wedman on the bench then sign 6th man Bill Walton. Any titles for the Celtics?

No, I don't think Kareem would have gotten it done as Magic was the alpha dog and leader of those show-time teams.


As BTW, in their ten years playing together, Magic held a 3-1 edge in MVPS, a 3-1 edge in Finals MVPs, and outvoted Kareem in the MVP voting in eight of those ten seasons (the last eight BTW.)

So it is very clear as to who had the most impact on the Lakers in those ten years between Magic and Kareem.

Even if Magic had the most impact, that doesn't mean that LA couldn't win a title anyway. Some say Durant had the most impact on that monster GS team; doesn't mean Dray and the Splash Bros couldn't win titles on their own.

penbeast0 wrote:Even if Magic had the most impact, that doesn't mean that LA couldn't win a title anyway. Some say Durant had the most impact on that monster GS team; doesn't mean Dray and the Splash Bros couldn't win titles on their own.

Magic's leadership was the most important thing about LA's success in the 1980s he bought out the best in everyone.

Meanwhile, Kareem was a major ass-hole to his teammates from the late 1970s onwards

And the Lakers as a result went through five miserable years with Kareem playing with better teammates than what Barry had in 1975.

And they were basically either early-round cannon-fodder or were even swept by a team with a worse record, in the weakest era for title teams in NBA history.



Kareem without Magic most likely finishes his career in 1985 or 1986 with one or two rings which would ensure that most people would see him as Wilt 2.0


Great individual numbers but not much team success.

penbeast0 wrote:What about Parish, McHale, Maxwell, DJ, Henderson/Ainge? In 86 Maxwell is gone but they have Scott Wedman on the bench then sign 6th man Bill Walton. Any titles for the Celtics?

They're (possibly) a slightly better Bullets

wojoaderge wrote:

penbeast0 wrote:What about Parish, McHale, Maxwell, DJ, Henderson/Ainge? In 86 Maxwell is gone but they have Scott Wedman on the bench then sign 6th man Bill Walton. Any titles for the Celtics?

They're (possibly) a slightly better Bullets

80s Bullets, that's pretty insulting (says the Bullets fan).

Parish >> Mahorn
McHale > Ruland
Wedman < Greg Ballard
DJ >> Sobers
Henderson/Ainge = F. Johnson (to give Frank Johnson the benefit of the doubt)

And those were the best Bullets teams! With Ruland getting injured, Mahorn leaving, etc., the Bullets weren't over .500 again that decade except for one 42 win season in 87 (Old Moses, Charles Jones, Terry Catledge, Jeff Malone, Enis Whatley). Parish, McHale, DJ are 3 HOF players if not generational talents like Bird and should make the Celtics at least contenders.

I do agree with coastalmarker that Magic's ability to integrate Kareem back into a team rather than just an individually brilliant player was one of the keys to the dynasty but in the 3 years pre-Magic, they still won 53, 45, and 47 games with Kareem/Wilkes/Nixon and then added Michael Cooper to give them the perimeter defender they had been missing. They should be at least at the Phoenix level for the decade of the 80s until Kareem ages out.

penbeast0 wrote:

wojoaderge wrote:

penbeast0 wrote:What about Parish, McHale, Maxwell, DJ, Henderson/Ainge? In 86 Maxwell is gone but they have Scott Wedman on the bench then sign 6th man Bill Walton. Any titles for the Celtics?

They're (possibly) a slightly better Bullets

80s Bullets, that's pretty insulting (says the Bullets fan).

Parish >> Mahorn
McHale > Ruland
Wedman < Greg Ballard
DJ >> Sobers
Henderson/Ainge = F. Johnson (to give Frank Johnson the benefit of the doubt)

And those were the best Bullets teams! With Ruland getting injured, Mahorn leaving, etc., the Bullets weren't over .500 again that decade except for one 42 win season in 87 (Old Moses, Charles Jones, Terry Catledge, Jeff Ruland, Enis Whatley). Parish, McHale, DJ are 3 HOF players if not generational talents like Bird and should make the Celtics at least contenders.

Given the strength of the East in that period, that Boston squad doesn't sound like a team that seriously contends at all. Missing the level of talent Bird brought is a very, very large blow. I can't imagine them looking for a second like they had a shot versus Philly, and they'd be hard-up versus the Bucks, too. And later in the decade, the Bulls as well (very late).

penbeast0 wrote:

wojoaderge wrote:

penbeast0 wrote:What about Parish, McHale, Maxwell, DJ, Henderson/Ainge? In 86 Maxwell is gone but they have Scott Wedman on the bench then sign 6th man Bill Walton. Any titles for the Celtics?

They're (possibly) a slightly better Bullets

80s Bullets, that's pretty insulting (says the Bullets fan).

Parish >> Mahorn
McHale > Ruland
Wedman < Greg Ballard
DJ >> Sobers
Henderson/Ainge = F. Johnson (to give Frank Johnson the benefit of the doubt)

And those were the best Bullets teams! With Ruland getting injured, Mahorn leaving, etc., the Bullets weren't over .500 again that decade except for one 42 win season in 87 (Old Moses, Charles Jones, Terry Catledge, Jeff Malone, Enis Whatley). Parish, McHale, DJ are 3 HOF players if not generational talents like Bird and should make the Celtics at least contenders.

I do agree with coastalmarker that Magic's ability to integrate Kareem back into a team rather than just an individually brilliant player was one of the keys to the dynasty but in the 3 years pre-Magic, they still won 53, 45, and 47 games with Kareem/Wilkes/Nixon and then added Michael Cooper to give them the perimeter defender they had been missing. They should be at least at the Phoenix level for the decade of the 80s until Kareem ages out.

The celtics in 89 are a interesting window into how capable they were as a supporting cast going 42-40 with only 6 games of bird. That was not even the best version of that supporting cast (ageing parish) and had a big bird shaped hole in their pay-roll but still held up

tsherkin wrote:
Given the strength of the East in that period, that Boston squad doesn't sound like a team that seriously contends at all. Missing the level of talent Bird brought is a very, very large blow. I can't imagine them looking for a second like they had a shot versus Philly, and they'd be hard-up versus the Bucks, too. And later in the decade, the Bulls as well (very late).

I'm assuming you mean the Pistons as the Bulls never topped 50 wins in the decade. Peak Boston without Bird isn't up to the peak Philly or Pistons but should be able to compete with the Milwaukee/Atlanta teams for the 2nd/3rd seed in the East with a possible breakthrough to the finals (where there won't be Magic led teams from the West), particularly post-Moncrief.

It would be interesting to see how the NBA would market itself without Magic and Bird.

Kareem was utterly boring and most of the media and fans didn't like him until Magic helped him fix his reputation

Moses could barely hold a conversation with the media

If Doctor J four peats from 1980 to 1983 you better believe that the NBA itself would have shoved him down everyone's throat's like they did with Jordan.

penbeast0 wrote:
I'm assuming you mean the Pistons as the Bulls never topped 50 wins in the decade. Peak Boston without Bird isn't up to the peak Philly or Pistons but should be able to compete with the Milwaukee/Atlanta teams for the 2nd/3rd seed in the East with a possible breakthrough to the finals (where there won't be Magic led teams from the West), particularly post-Moncrief.

I did mean to include the Pistons, yes. But also, I don't think Boston sans Bird would beat some of those Chicago squads who gave Detroit a run for their money, which is why I emphasized "late." They did take Detroit to 6 in 89 and then 7 in 90 (though that escapes the bubble here).

I can't really envision that Boston team making the Finals. We can agree to disagree on that; I can at least see what you're saying and appreciate the argument. You think that the rest of their roster is good enough. I think their offense tanks without him. Like, grant you all the way in 98, they managed to be 8th of 25 without him for all but 6 games (though they blew on defense and got smoked in 3 versus the Pistons in the first round after a 42-win season). That is sort of what I expect from them. Worse, in earlier seasons when McHale wasn't as developed. Maybe he develops earlier and mitigates things some so they hang around .500.

But like Dennis Johnson was not a particularly impressive offensive player. Hustle guy who D'd up, sure, but a weak scorer with limp offensive numbers. Having him shoulder any more burden than he did would not have gone well. Parish was good, but it's hard to separate how much impact Bird had on him, because he wasn't a stunner on O until he moved to Boston with Larry. I'd say he faded after Larry retired, but that's hardly fair because he was 40+ at that point because he had unholy endurance and durability. Either way, an efficient 17 ppg guy who can rebound and D, coupled to a weak offensive PG who Ds up, coupled to McHale isn't really enough to drive a team. Obviously DJ was older in 89, but he was never a particularly impressive scorer at any stage of his career and Parish wasn't a volume scorer either. They faded on D later on as they aged, but they didn't have the juice offensively. Philly early, Detroit later, there's a very short window in the middle where they'd be competing with Milwaukee.

And with Atlanta, let's see. Reasonable chance to beat Boston in 83 and 84. Probably again in 86. They definitely beat them in 88 and probably in 89 as well. Yeah. Philly through 87. Milwaukee in the mid 80s. Atlanta from 83 on. Chicago had a reasonable shot at Boston without Bird. Detroit. Too many teams for me to look at Boston as any kind of legitimate squad without Bird. Fantastic supporting squad, but missing far, far too much without him and without replacement.

penbeast0 wrote:Parish, McHale, DJ are 3 HOF players if not generational talents

I think without Bird they are much harder pressed to make the HOF. Maybe Parish and McHale if they put up a lot of numbers.

1980 - Sonics over 76ers
1981 - 76ers over Rockets
1982 - 76ers over Spurs
1983 - 76ers over Spurs
1984 - Bucks over Mavericks
1985 - 76ers over Nuggets
1986 - Bucks over Rockets
1987 - Pistons over Supersonics
1988 - Pistons over Jazz
1989 - Pistons over Suns
1990 - Bulls over Blazers
1991 - Bulls over Blazers

Dr J becomes the iconic figure of the decade

Boston and LA don't do anything unless you give them other players. Kareem and Worthy don't quite match up prime wise, and Celtics while better than some of these WC finalists are in the wrong conference.

If were just going to remove Bird & Magic altogether then everything about the 80s changes.

Dr. J wins 2 or 3 titles without Moses and becomes largely if not universally viewed as a top 5 ATG.

If Kareem loses Magic then he loses possibly 5 of his titles. He most likely retires by 84 or 85 thereby also losing his GOAT longevity status as well. Kareem then drops to the bottom of the top 10 if not out of it altogether.

I think Gervin vs Dr. J becomes a thing as the Spurs and 76ers probably meet in the Finals in 82 and 83. Gervin would have a legitimate shot a winning a title in one of those years thereby significantly elevating his legacy.

If you remove Bird and Magic you also open up the MVP award as well. This opens the door to players like Benard King, Isiah Thomas, and Dominique Wilkins to become league MVPs in the mid 80s.

Isiah not only improves his chances at being a league MVP but also a 3rd title in 87. He also becomes the perennial point guard of the 80s without being in Magic and Birds shadow.

The door opens for Hakeem to win a MVP award, a title, and a FMVP in 86.

Jordan still becomes the face of the league and iconic sports figure. However, he doesn't quite become the global and commercial sensation he became without Magic and Bird setting the stage for him.

I understand the OP is not talking about "marketing" but its hard to ignore the commercial and influential impact Bird and Magic had on the league. Without them the sport probably lags behind 10 years in its growth and development. Do we even know what a great sports rivalry looks like without Bird & Magic? Do we even know what a superstar is or how to brand one? Do we see the general level of skill and creativity we saw in the 90s without them? Does the sport go international by 92 or does it take another decade?

Stalwart wrote:Do we even know what a great sports rivalry looks like without Bird & Magic?

Yes, we do because such rivalry started in a year Magic Johnson was born...

penbeast0 wrote:Not marketing but who wins how many titles in the 80s if instead of those two, the two dominant teams drafted busts. Mdonnelly's thread about their supporting casts made me think about this. How would you project the 80s if those two either didn't play or LA and Boston were unable to draft them and they went to non-contenders? Does this become the era of Philadelphia dominance?

1980 Boston and LA were the best two teams but just barely in front of Philly with Seattle and Phoenix being the only other teams north of 50 wins.

1981 Philly tied Boston for best record with Milwaukee and Phoenix at better than 55 wins and LA only getting 54 plus San Antonio with 52.

1982 Boston has the best record again with Philly second and LA third, Milwaukee wins 55 and Seattle 52.

1983 Philly's title even in reality. Boston and LA next two, Phoenix, San Antonio, and Milwaukee in the 50-55 win range.

1984 Boston easily strongest with LA second. Philly drops to 52 wins, Milwaukee with 50.

1985 Boston/LA again but Milwaukee and Philly have 59 and 58 wins with Denver getting up to 52.

1986 Boston/LA with Milwaukee 3rd at 57 wins and Philly, Houston, and Atlanta just over the 50 win mark.

1987 LA/Boston with Atlanta and Dallas over 55 wins and Detroit and Milwaukee with 52 and 50.

1988 LA/Boston this time followed by Denver, Detroit, Dallas, Portland, and Atlanta in the 50-54 range.

1989 Bad Boys break through to best record and title. Cleveland, LA, Phoenix next three, Atlanta, New York, and Utah at 50+.

Give Chicago Magic. Magic said he would go back to college for another year if the Lakers did not win the coin toss vs Chicago but I don't believe him. That puts Magic with Reggie Theus, Theus was sort of like Magic. They also have a good but fading Artis Gilmore.

Lakers choose take Moncreif over Greewood according to what was reported.

1978 Boston drafted Bird at 6 knowing that Bird was going back to college. 5 teams did not realize the situation with Bird or refused to gamble on Bird signing with their team prior to the next draft. Lets have the Warriors take Bird instead of Purvis short at number 5.
Bird still plays with Parish. Lets hope the Warriors don't still want to trade Parrish for Joe Barry Carrol.

Can Bird turn arround the Warriors?
Center Parish Clifford Ray
Power forward Bird, Power forward center Wayne Cooper, pf Darnell Hillman
Small forward Sony Parker, Tom Abernathy
Off Guard Phil Smith, Raymond Townsed.
Point guard John Lucas 80 games, 34 minutes,he may have been on drugs but he was playing., Jo Jo White

They had a good coach but had a bad start and Attles got replaced nid season. I figure Bird saves Attles job.
At least everybody would understand that Bird is a power forward.

The next year Warriors trade Wayne Cooper for injured drugged up Bernard King who scored 22 efficients points per game for the Warriors. warriors traded Phil Smith for previous scoring champ World B Free who scored 24 points a game for the Warriors. Will these guys play defense for Al Attles and Bird? Can Bird make them winners? They do have talent.

Warriors also got pf Larry Smith a good player and hard worker in the 2nd round.
Warriors also drafted Jeff Ruland in the 2nd round and traded his draft rights for a future 2nd round pick. i am having the Warriors keep Ruland.
I am going to give he Warriors the 17th pick in the draft instead of the McHale pick which was the 3rdpick.. With the 17th pick I am having the Warriors select Larry Drew, a fairly good point gaurd. i am saying that Because the Warriors win Bernard King does not get traded because winning makes people happy so King does not make management so nervous and 1984 playoff King happens with Bird.

Al Attles reurned as Coach and stayed GM. Maybe AL Attles fired himself as coach for the 2nd half of 1979-80

John Lucas was playing well for the 1986 Rockets before drugs took him. Warriors drafed Lewis Lloyd who also played well for the 1986 Rockets before he failed his drug test. Then most importand Bernard King. Is it reasonable to say these guys are not out of control drug users because if they play to their potential this can be a very strong Warrior team.

Warriors will be drafting late. They should be trying to draft a big defensive off guard but I see nothing like that in the late 1st round.
They don't get o draft Sleepy Floyd because he was in the middle of the draft and winning means drafting late.

Don't want Mickey Johnson because at least until Ruland gets injured there are too many good bigs on the roster. Also i am keeping Bernard King and if I trade him for very good druggie Michael Ray Richardson Idon't trade Richardson for Micky Johnson. Micchael. Ray Richardson is the big defensive off guard that I want but I don't want totrade King and if I do trade King I need a small forward because I drafted Bird instead of Purvis short.

They got 6' 4" off guard Ron Brewer for World Be Free but he could not have been too good because he was traded for a 2nd round pick .World Be Free would have 3 more 20 point a game seasons after the trade to the Cavaliers. Just rotate him with a bigger defensive guard, don't trade him.

Warriors found cast off Terry Teagle in 1984 and that was a good addition.
Warriors won't be bad enough to Draft Chris Mullin.