Players you’d take over Bird as a scorer?
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Players you’d take over Bird as a scorer?
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Players you’d take over Bird as a scorer?
Off the top of your head what players would you for sure take over Bird when it strictly comes to scoring?
Re: Players you’d take over Bird as a scorer?
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Re: Players you’d take over Bird as a scorer?
I don't really consider scoring Bird's forte. With that being said as peaks as scorers (no order and not fully exhaustive)
Kareem, MJ, Lebron,then. Nowitzki , Reggie Miller, Kobe, Shaq, Jerry West, Kawhi, Steph, CP3, James Harden, Kevin Durant, Luka Doncic, Nikola Jokic, Hakeem, Dwyane Wade, Charles Barkley, Oscar Robertson, Wilt Chamberlain, Tim Duncan, George Gervin
Feel free to challenge me on any of them.
Kareem, MJ, Lebron,then. Nowitzki , Reggie Miller, Kobe, Shaq, Jerry West, Kawhi, Steph, CP3, James Harden, Kevin Durant, Luka Doncic, Nikola Jokic, Hakeem, Dwyane Wade, Charles Barkley, Oscar Robertson, Wilt Chamberlain, Tim Duncan, George Gervin
Feel free to challenge me on any of them.
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Re: Players you’d take over Bird as a scorer?
Bird's amazing offense wasn't built around his scoring ability. I wouldn't even call him top 20 scorer ever, but he's in conversation for top 5 offensive player of all-time.
Re: Players you’d take over Bird as a scorer?
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Re: Players you’d take over Bird as a scorer?
LukaTheGOAT wrote:I don't really consider scoring Bird's forte. With that being said as peaks as scorers (no order and not fully exhaustive)
Kareem, MJ, Lebron,then. Nowitzki , Reggie Miller, Kobe, Shaq, Jerry West, Kawhi, Steph, CP3, James Harden, Kevin Durant, Luka Doncic, Nikola Jokic, Hakeem, Dwyane Wade, Charles Barkley, Oscar Robertson, Wilt Chamberlain, Tim Duncan, George Gervin
Feel free to challenge me on any of them.
Surprised to see Reggie Miller on that list. Also Idk if I'd agree with Duncan. George Gervin seems a little suspicious but I don't know thaaat much about him.
With the others I think I agree.
Can you write a bit about Miller vs Bird as scorers or provide evidence for that?
“These guys have been criticized the last few years for not getting to where we’re going, but I’ve always said that the most important thing in sports is to keep trying. Let this be an example of what it means to say it’s never over.” - Jerry Sloan
Re: Players you’d take over Bird as a scorer?
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Re: Players you’d take over Bird as a scorer?
Joao Saraiva wrote:LukaTheGOAT wrote:I don't really consider scoring Bird's forte. With that being said as peaks as scorers (no order and not fully exhaustive)
Kareem, MJ, Lebron,then. Nowitzki , Reggie Miller, Kobe, Shaq, Jerry West, Kawhi, Steph, CP3, James Harden, Kevin Durant, Luka Doncic, Nikola Jokic, Hakeem, Dwyane Wade, Charles Barkley, Oscar Robertson, Wilt Chamberlain, Tim Duncan, George Gervin
Feel free to challenge me on any of them.
Surprised to see Reggie Miller on that list. Also Idk if I'd agree with Duncan. George Gervin seems a little suspicious but I don't know thaaat much about him.
With the others I think I agree.
Can you write a bit about Miller vs Bird as scorers or provide evidence for that?
I don't think Duncan was a better scorer than Bird (probably not), but Iceman is a lock. Gervin was one of the best scorers ever and he actually led his team to good offensive results. Bird has no case over George scoring-wise.
Re: Players you’d take over Bird as a scorer?
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Re: Players you’d take over Bird as a scorer?
70sFan wrote:Joao Saraiva wrote:LukaTheGOAT wrote:I don't really consider scoring Bird's forte. With that being said as peaks as scorers (no order and not fully exhaustive)
Kareem, MJ, Lebron,then. Nowitzki , Reggie Miller, Kobe, Shaq, Jerry West, Kawhi, Steph, CP3, James Harden, Kevin Durant, Luka Doncic, Nikola Jokic, Hakeem, Dwyane Wade, Charles Barkley, Oscar Robertson, Wilt Chamberlain, Tim Duncan, George Gervin
Feel free to challenge me on any of them.
Surprised to see Reggie Miller on that list. Also Idk if I'd agree with Duncan. George Gervin seems a little suspicious but I don't know thaaat much about him.
With the others I think I agree.
Can you write a bit about Miller vs Bird as scorers or provide evidence for that?
I don't think Duncan was a better scorer than Bird (probably not), but Iceman is a lock. Gervin was one of the best scorers ever and he actually led his team to good offensive results. Bird has no case over George scoring-wise.
Thank you for explaining at least the Gervin part. I'm not very aware of that. Never followed much before 80s, so I didn't get the best part of his career.
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Re: Players you’d take over Bird as a scorer?
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Re: Players you’d take over Bird as a scorer?
LukaTheGOAT wrote:I don't really consider scoring Bird's forte. With that being said as peaks as scorers (no order and not fully exhaustive)
Kareem, MJ, Lebron,then. Nowitzki , Reggie Miller, Kobe, Shaq, Jerry West, Kawhi, Steph, CP3, James Harden, Kevin Durant, Luka Doncic, Nikola Jokic, Hakeem, Dwyane Wade, Charles Barkley, Oscar Robertson, Wilt Chamberlain, Tim Duncan, George Gervin
Feel free to challenge me on any of them.
CP3, Duncan, and Reggie Miller are kinda surprising off first glance , though I may have to look at the numbers when I get a chance
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Re: Players you’d take over Bird as a scorer?
Joao Saraiva wrote:LukaTheGOAT wrote:I don't really consider scoring Bird's forte. With that being said as peaks as scorers (no order and not fully exhaustive)
Kareem, MJ, Lebron,then. Nowitzki , Reggie Miller, Kobe, Shaq, Jerry West, Kawhi, Steph, CP3, James Harden, Kevin Durant, Luka Doncic, Nikola Jokic, Hakeem, Dwyane Wade, Charles Barkley, Oscar Robertson, Wilt Chamberlain, Tim Duncan, George Gervin
Feel free to challenge me on any of them.
Surprised to see Reggie Miller on that list. Also Idk if I'd agree with Duncan. George Gervin seems a little suspicious but I don't know thaaat much about him.
With the others I think I agree.
Can you write a bit about Miller vs Bird as scorers or provide evidence for that?
I'm guessing it's because Miller's numbers were better in the playoffs.
5 season playoff peaks, per 100 possessions + relative TS% (i.e. opponent adjusted):
Bird - 30.2 points, 4.1 rTS%
Miller - 34.4 points, 9.5 rTS%
Playoff careers -
Bird - 27.9 points, 2.1 rTS%
Miller - 30.5 points, 8.9 rTS%
Miller's playoff scoring numbers are actually devastating - the player he emulates closest in 5 year peak seems to be Kareem (34.1 points, 10.4 rTS%). Add that Miller was a ridiculously good "rover" (to use Doctor MJ's very pleasant terminology

He's in contention for being the best player ever in terms of being better in the playoffs than he is in the regular season.
Bird's scoring numbers in the playoffs are actually oddly pedestrian. Fantastic player, an arguable top 5 passer ever, and an offensive force thanks to how well his scoring, passing and general basketball brain intertwined. But yeah, if we isolate scoring, there are probably quite a few that are better.
I use a lot of parentheses when I post (it's a bad habit)
Re: Players you’d take over Bird as a scorer?
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Re: Players you’d take over Bird as a scorer?
Quite a few, probably 30 or 40 minimum.
Re: Players you’d take over Bird as a scorer?
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Re: Players you’d take over Bird as a scorer?
Bad Gatorade wrote:Joao Saraiva wrote:LukaTheGOAT wrote:I don't really consider scoring Bird's forte. With that being said as peaks as scorers (no order and not fully exhaustive)
Kareem, MJ, Lebron,then. Nowitzki , Reggie Miller, Kobe, Shaq, Jerry West, Kawhi, Steph, CP3, James Harden, Kevin Durant, Luka Doncic, Nikola Jokic, Hakeem, Dwyane Wade, Charles Barkley, Oscar Robertson, Wilt Chamberlain, Tim Duncan, George Gervin
Feel free to challenge me on any of them.
Surprised to see Reggie Miller on that list. Also Idk if I'd agree with Duncan. George Gervin seems a little suspicious but I don't know thaaat much about him.
With the others I think I agree.
Can you write a bit about Miller vs Bird as scorers or provide evidence for that?
I'm guessing it's because Miller's numbers were better in the playoffs.
5 season playoff peaks, per 100 possessions + relative TS% (i.e. opponent adjusted):
Bird - 30.2 points, 4.1 rTS%
Miller - 34.4 points, 9.5 rTS%
Playoff careers -
Bird - 27.9 points, 2.1 rTS%
Miller - 30.5 points, 8.9 rTS%
Miller's playoff scoring numbers are actually devastating - the player he emulates closest in 5 year peak seems to be Kareem (34.1 points, 10.4 rTS%). Add that Miller was a ridiculously good "rover" (to use Doctor MJ's very pleasant terminology) and that Indiana routinely led elite playoff offences (for example, 91-95 Indiana was over +6 rORTG, 97-01 Indiana was around +8 rOTG) and Miller's case is actually really, really strong.
He's in contention for being the best player ever in terms of being better in the playoffs than he is in the regular season.
Bird's scoring numbers in the playoffs are actually oddly pedestrian. Fantastic player, an arguable top 5 passer ever, and an offensive force thanks to how well his scoring, passing and general basketball brain intertwined. But yeah, if we isolate scoring, there are probably quite a few that are better.
Fair enough. I don't have Bird in my top 10 all time because of some of those playoff drops/inconsistency, I have him #11. However, I can't just disregard completely regular season numbers too, specially since the RS provides the numbers vs equal competition for every team and it's a much bigger sample size.
I'd also say the East was the better conference in the 80s, while when Miller played I'd say the East was OK but besides having the usual champion in the Bulls it wasn't the better conference overall.
“These guys have been criticized the last few years for not getting to where we’re going, but I’ve always said that the most important thing in sports is to keep trying. Let this be an example of what it means to say it’s never over.” - Jerry Sloan
Re: Players you’d take over Bird as a scorer?
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Re: Players you’d take over Bird as a scorer?
I'm gonna divide my list between players I'm familiar enough with to be "for sure" level of confident in and guys for whom I'm almost exclusively relying on their stats and posts I've read here on the PC board. My emphasis is on relative volume + efficiency in their primes, prime consistency and longevity, playoff resiliency and demonstrated portability (rather than speculations of). Impact on team offensive performance is tricky because some of these guys are also elite playmakers and this is strictly about scoring, so I'm trying to be cognizant of when that applies. And speaking of playmaking, leveraging it as a threat can enhance scoring efficiency by virtue of rendering opponents more conservative and indecisive with help defense, so yet another element to be aware of. I'm trying to limit subjective estimations of things like "pure scoring" ability (versus effective scoring) and era portability (versus era dominance), though I do give some consideration to varying "degree of difficulty" within roles and team contexts (e.g. guards anchoring otherwise mediocre offensive rosters are generally relied upon to take a higher rate of low-percentage shots than bigs who enjoy adequate floor-spacing and competent entry passers)
Jordan
Curry
Durant
Dirk
LeBron
Jokic
Shaq
Miller
Kawhi
Wade
Kobe
Harden
Barkley
Jabbar
Robertson
West
Wilt
Dantley
Gervin
I'd also likely include Chris Mullin in the first list but for his very limited prime PS sample size. Mullin somehow ranks 26th all-time in career RS TS Added (1797.7 in 32163 mins vs Bird's 1054.6 in 34443 mins) despite being only 112th in minutes played and having his career derailed by injury amid his prime
Jordan
Curry
Durant
Dirk
LeBron
Jokic
Shaq
Miller
Kawhi
Wade
Kobe
Harden
Barkley
Jabbar
Robertson
West
Wilt
Dantley
Gervin
I'd also likely include Chris Mullin in the first list but for his very limited prime PS sample size. Mullin somehow ranks 26th all-time in career RS TS Added (1797.7 in 32163 mins vs Bird's 1054.6 in 34443 mins) despite being only 112th in minutes played and having his career derailed by injury amid his prime
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Re: Players you’d take over Bird as a scorer?
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Re: Players you’d take over Bird as a scorer?
Bird in his true prime 83-88, was still a 26.7 ppg 58.3 ts% in the regular season(roughly +4.4 rts%) and 26 ppg 57 ts% in the playoffs. He was a better scorer than a lot are giving him credit for, certainly better than some names being thrown around such as Cp3 or Tim Duncan. I think Hakeem is a tough sell as well, unless you put heavier focus on playoffs.
Looking at average prime level, these names are either clearly or likely better.
Jordan
Lebron
Shaq
Kareem
Curry
KD
Oscar
Wilt
Kawhi
Kobe
Dirk
Wade
West
Harden
Barkley
Miller
Gervin
Dantley
Jokic?(Depends how you weigh longevity I guess)
I could be forgetting a few notable guys, but yeah I'd really like to know who these potentially 40 players better are.
Looking at average prime level, these names are either clearly or likely better.
Jordan
Lebron
Shaq
Kareem
Curry
KD
Oscar
Wilt
Kawhi
Kobe
Dirk
Wade
West
Harden
Barkley
Miller
Gervin
Dantley
Jokic?(Depends how you weigh longevity I guess)
I could be forgetting a few notable guys, but yeah I'd really like to know who these potentially 40 players better are.
Re: Players you’d take over Bird as a scorer?
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Re: Players you’d take over Bird as a scorer?
How does one even define this? Players whom, if passed the ball, must try to score and cannot pass? I'm taking Larry over a lot of guys thus far mentioned, in that situation
Re: Players you’d take over Bird as a scorer?
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Re: Players you’d take over Bird as a scorer?
No-more-rings wrote:Bird in his true prime 83-88, was still a 26.7 ppg 58.3 ts% in the regular season(roughly +4.4 rts%) and 26 ppg 57 ts% in the playoffs. He was a better scorer than a lot are giving him credit for, certainly better than some names being thrown around such as Cp3 or Tim Duncan. I think Hakeem is a tough sell as well, unless you put heavier focus on playoffs.
Looking at average prime level, these names are either clearly or likely better.
Jordan
Lebron
Shaq
Kareem
Curry
KD
Oscar
Wilt
Kawhi
Kobe
Dirk
Wade
West
Harden
Barkley
Miller
Gervin
Dantley
Jokic?(Depends how you weigh longevity I guess)
I could be forgetting a few notable guys, but yeah I'd really like to know who these potentially 40 players better are.
You can add:
Pettit
Barry
Julius
Baylor
Giannis
McAdoo
Moses
Davis
Embiid
Some of them are not 100%, but I can see him being outside of top 30. Outside top 40 is a stretch though.
Re: Players you’d take over Bird as a scorer?
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Re: Players you’d take over Bird as a scorer?
I would throw Lanier in there too; his hookshot was tough to defend and he elevated in the postseason. Also odd that no one has mentioned Bird’s own teammate! 
King’s peak was short but clearly on a different level. Erving is pretty comparable. Magic, Nash, and Ray also were not too far off of his volume while being significantly more efficient, and peak Ray has the volume too. Lillard has some postseason dropoffs too but his starting level is clearly higher…
Maybe focusing in on 1984-88 Bird cuts down on the list, but even then still not much relative to other peak scoring periods. He was a great shooter, all-time passer, smart off-ball, variably decent help defender in his time… and he happened to be one of the ten or so best scorers in his league, but in an all-time sense that status does not guarantee a high comparative finish.
EDIT: Pierce too. And frankly Karl Malone has enough of a regular season advantage that I am not sure his postseason drop should be outright disqualifying. Certainly not for a career comparison.

King’s peak was short but clearly on a different level. Erving is pretty comparable. Magic, Nash, and Ray also were not too far off of his volume while being significantly more efficient, and peak Ray has the volume too. Lillard has some postseason dropoffs too but his starting level is clearly higher…
Maybe focusing in on 1984-88 Bird cuts down on the list, but even then still not much relative to other peak scoring periods. He was a great shooter, all-time passer, smart off-ball, variably decent help defender in his time… and he happened to be one of the ten or so best scorers in his league, but in an all-time sense that status does not guarantee a high comparative finish.
EDIT: Pierce too. And frankly Karl Malone has enough of a regular season advantage that I am not sure his postseason drop should be outright disqualifying. Certainly not for a career comparison.
Re: Players you’d take over Bird as a scorer?
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Re: Players you’d take over Bird as a scorer?
AEnigma wrote:I would throw Lanier in there too; his hookshot was tough to defend and he elevated in the postseason.
Outstanding mention, I feel bad that I forgot him on my list.
Re: Players you’d take over Bird as a scorer?
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Re: Players you’d take over Bird as a scorer?
Does anyone here know of an easy way to find league average TS% for a selected string of consecutive seasons? BBREF seems to only allow for averaging of selected seasons up to the Adjusted Shooting section of a player's page, which of course is where league average TS% is listed. The historical league average page doesn't even list TS% let alone allow you to average multiple seasons
I'm trying to find a simple method of capturing a player's average prime rTS% without having to do the averaging out calculations myself
I'm trying to find a simple method of capturing a player's average prime rTS% without having to do the averaging out calculations myself
1.61803398874989484820458683436563811772030917980576286
2135448622705260462818902449707207
204189391137484754088
0753868917521
26633862
22353
693
2135448622705260462818902449707207
204189391137484754088
0753868917521
26633862
22353
693
Re: Players you’d take over Bird as a scorer?
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Re: Players you’d take over Bird as a scorer?
BenoUdrihFTL wrote:Does anyone here know of an easy way to find league average TS% for a selected string of consecutive seasons? BBREF seems to only allow for averaging of selected seasons up to the Adjusted Shooting section of a player's page, which of course is where league average TS% is listed. The historical league average page doesn't even list TS% let alone allow you to average multiple seasons
I'm trying to find a simple method of capturing a player's average prime rTS% without having to do the averaging out calculations myself
Every season page has it. Every player page has league average TS% in the adjusted shooting section of the b-ref page, so you can grab blocks of league average TS% very quickly. Stuff it into a spreadsheet for easy reference, and boom.
Re: Players you’d take over Bird as a scorer?
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Re: Players you’d take over Bird as a scorer?
70sFan wrote:No-more-rings wrote:Bird in his true prime 83-88, was still a 26.7 ppg 58.3 ts% in the regular season(roughly +4.4 rts%) and 26 ppg 57 ts% in the playoffs. He was a better scorer than a lot are giving him credit for, certainly better than some names being thrown around such as Cp3 or Tim Duncan. I think Hakeem is a tough sell as well, unless you put heavier focus on playoffs.
Looking at average prime level, these names are either clearly or likely better.
Jordan
Lebron
Shaq
Kareem
Curry
KD
Oscar
Wilt
Kawhi
Kobe
Dirk
Wade
West
Harden
Barkley
Miller
Gervin
Dantley
Jokic?(Depends how you weigh longevity I guess)
I could be forgetting a few notable guys, but yeah I'd really like to know who these potentially 40 players better are.
You can add:
Pettit
Barry
Julius
Baylor
Giannis
McAdoo
Moses
Davis
Embiid
Some of them are not 100%, but I can see him being outside of top 30. Outside top 40 is a stretch though.
You can add those names, doesn’t mean I will.
Re: Players you’d take over Bird as a scorer?
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Re: Players you’d take over Bird as a scorer?
adrian dantley was a better scorer than bird, as was karl malone