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Obviously they play different positions so not an apples to apples comparison, but something I've been thinking about

In a vacuum - who would you value more?

I mean, it took being put next to the greatest shooters of all time for Wiggins to be decent. Allen has improved every year of his career and took a big step last season.

Wiggins probably has both a higher ceiling and lower floor to his impact, but I think in 95% of situations Allen is just a way better player.

Most teams aren't build the was GS is and aren't needed to improve on the margins like GS needed to. We've seen Wiggins in more normal situations and he was really just not good. While we have a smaller useful sample with Allen I would be surprised if we don't see a repeat of last years impact despite a reduced role and what will probably be a different officiating style compared to last season.

RCM88x wrote:Wiggins probably has both a higher ceiling and lower floor to his impact, but I think in 95% of situations Allen is just a way better player.

Most teams aren't build the was GS is and aren't needed to improve on the margins like GS needed to. We've seen Wiggins in more normal situations and he was really just not good. While we have a smaller useful sample with Allen I would be surprised if we don't see a repeat of last years impact despite a reduced role and what will probably be a different officiating style compared to last season.

Definitely a question of how much to credit the environment for Wiggins improvement - would his defense revert back to Minny levels on a different team?

Really what interests me about the comparison is the relative defensive value of a rim protector vs a wing stopper in today's league. Even just looking at the Finals, Wiggins and Rob Williams both had hugely valuable defensive series - how do you weight the two?

parsnips33 wrote:

RCM88x wrote:Wiggins probably has both a higher ceiling and lower floor to his impact, but I think in 95% of situations Allen is just a way better player.

Most teams aren't build the was GS is and aren't needed to improve on the margins like GS needed to. We've seen Wiggins in more normal situations and he was really just not good. While we have a smaller useful sample with Allen I would be surprised if we don't see a repeat of last years impact despite a reduced role and what will probably be a different officiating style compared to last season.

Definitely a question of how much to credit the environment for Wiggins improvement - would his defense revert back to Minny levels on a different team?

Really what interests me about the comparison is the relative defensive value of a rim protector vs a wing stopper in today's league. Even just looking at the Finals, Wiggins and Rob Williams both had hugely valuable defensive series - how do you weight the two?

I always revert back to the idea the rim protector is more valuable defensively than the wing in large sample, and usually significantly so. The problem is playoff series and especially series deciding games aren't large sample so we can get situations where the wing is more valuable defensively.

However, I would argue that Draymond and perhaps even Looney were more valuable in the finals/playoffs than Wiggins, despite these ideal circumstances.

I would also predict that Wiggins defense would "revert" if he went back to a more normal situation.

Clear gap in favor of Allen. Wiggins was in a perfect situation and he still wasn’t anything that special. Still pretty one-dimensional on offense, not offering much in the way of playmaking or gravity. He’ll give you a nice scoring outburst occasionally but he’s too inconsistent on the whole in that department for it to be the one thing he hangs his hat on. And then defensively he’s definitely solid due to his 1-on-1 ability against wings and had a nice series on that end in the Finals. But he’s not touching Allen on that end who’s legitimately a top 3ish rim protector in the league with the mobility to not get played off the floor ever. Even if you prefer Wiggins offensively despite Allen being an elite efficiency rim roller, I don’t see how the gap there is larger than Allen’s defensive advantage.

Allen is going to be more productive and more efficient and he's more likely to be successful as a centerpiece.

Obviously Wiggins has proven he can play near perfect defense against the best players. Hopefully Allen gets the opportunity, too.

Maybe I made a mistake choosing Wiggins specifically for this comp - would people take JA over any broadly defined "3&D" player - be it Mikal Bridges, OG Anunoby, etc?

parsnips33 wrote:Maybe I made a mistake choosing Wiggins specifically for this comp - would people take JA over any broadly defined "3&D" player - be it Mikal Bridges, OG Anunoby, etc?

That's a little closer. I would probably still take JA over OG. I would probably take Mikal Bridges over JA.

parsnips33 wrote:

RCM88x wrote:Wiggins probably has both a higher ceiling and lower floor to his impact, but I think in 95% of situations Allen is just a way better player.

Most teams aren't build the was GS is and aren't needed to improve on the margins like GS needed to. We've seen Wiggins in more normal situations and he was really just not good. While we have a smaller useful sample with Allen I would be surprised if we don't see a repeat of last years impact despite a reduced role and what will probably be a different officiating style compared to last season.

Definitely a question of how much to credit the environment for Wiggins improvement - would his defense revert back to Minny levels on a different team?

Really what interests me about the comparison is the relative defensive value of a rim protector vs a wing stopper in today's league. Even just looking at the Finals, Wiggins and Rob Williams both had hugely valuable defensive series - how do you weight the two?

Curry and the Warriors struggled mightily against Rob Williams [on one knee] in his limited Finals Minutes.

Wiggins is the type of player you want and maybe even need to simply throw on the all-star wings in the league.

I'd comfortably take Williams in a vacuum but Wiggins is an iron man which likely tilts this in his favor, even if Rob Williams may very well be the best defensive center in the league.

RCM88x wrote:Wiggins probably has both a higher ceiling and lower floor to his impact, but I think in 95% of situations Allen is just a way better player.

Most teams aren't build the was GS is and aren't needed to improve on the margins like GS needed to. We've seen Wiggins in more normal situations and he was really just not good. While we have a smaller useful sample with Allen I would be surprised if we don't see a repeat of last years impact despite a reduced role and what will probably be a different officiating style compared to last season.

I've said this before, but I don't think that Wiggins' situation in Minnesota was exactly normal. He had one year on a playoff team with Butler leading things where the Wolves were +2.8 points better per 100 possessions with him on the court. Nothing spectacular, for sure.

But outside of that year, Wiggins played on teams with one generationally gifted shooter and no other good second options. That includes the 2020-21 Warriors. Wiggins is very clearly not a good second option. That's fine. But neither is Mikaal Bridges and he's still highly regarded.

I guess my point is that I don't think the Minnesota years -- save for Butler's season, which pushed Wiggins to an off-ball role in a terribly uncreative Thibs-led offense) are exactly "normal." They were tankathons and bad teams. No doubt, Wiggins played a role in those teams being bad because he wasn't a capable first or second option. But I think there's an in between. If he had been, say, on last year's Charlotte Hornets, there would be at least 2-3 guys above him on the offensive pecking order. That's not a great team, by any means, just simply one that allows Wiggins to slot into the role he is best in and a team that would be considered "normal."

Colbinii wrote:

parsnips33 wrote:

RCM88x wrote:Wiggins probably has both a higher ceiling and lower floor to his impact, but I think in 95% of situations Allen is just a way better player.

Most teams aren't build the was GS is and aren't needed to improve on the margins like GS needed to. We've seen Wiggins in more normal situations and he was really just not good. While we have a smaller useful sample with Allen I would be surprised if we don't see a repeat of last years impact despite a reduced role and what will probably be a different officiating style compared to last season.

Definitely a question of how much to credit the environment for Wiggins improvement - would his defense revert back to Minny levels on a different team?

Really what interests me about the comparison is the relative defensive value of a rim protector vs a wing stopper in today's league. Even just looking at the Finals, Wiggins and Rob Williams both had hugely valuable defensive series - how do you weight the two?

Curry and the Warriors struggled mightily against Rob Williams [on one knee] in his limited Finals Minutes.

Wiggins is the type of player you want and maybe even need to simply throw on the all-star wings in the league.

I'd comfortably take Williams in a vacuum but Wiggins is an iron man which likely tilts this in his favor, even if Rob Williams may very well be the best defensive center in the league.

Williams was a fearsome shot blocker in the Finals, but I thought Curry did quite well against him on the whole.

Warriors Analyst wrote:

RCM88x wrote:Wiggins probably has both a higher ceiling and lower floor to his impact, but I think in 95% of situations Allen is just a way better player.

Most teams aren't build the was GS is and aren't needed to improve on the margins like GS needed to. We've seen Wiggins in more normal situations and he was really just not good. While we have a smaller useful sample with Allen I would be surprised if we don't see a repeat of last years impact despite a reduced role and what will probably be a different officiating style compared to last season.

I've said this before, but I don't think that Wiggins' situation in Minnesota was exactly normal. He had one year on a playoff team with Butler leading things where the Wolves were +2.8 points better per 100 possessions with him on the court. Nothing spectacular, for sure.

But outside of that year, Wiggins played on teams with one generationally gifted shooter and no other good second options. That includes the 2020-21 Warriors. Wiggins is very clearly not a good second option. That's fine. But neither is Mikaal Bridges and he's still highly regarded.

I guess my point is that I don't think the Minnesota years -- save for Butler's season, which pushed Wiggins to an off-ball role in a terribly uncreative Thibs-led offense) are exactly "normal." They were tankathons and bad teams. No doubt, Wiggins played a role in those teams being bad because he wasn't a capable first or second option. But I think there's an in between. If he had been, say, on last year's Charlotte Hornets, there would be at least 2-3 guys above him on the offensive pecking order. That's not a great team, by any means, just simply one that allows Wiggins to slot into the role he is best in and a team that would be considered "normal."

Colbinii wrote:

parsnips33 wrote:
Definitely a question of how much to credit the environment for Wiggins improvement - would his defense revert back to Minny levels on a different team?

Really what interests me about the comparison is the relative defensive value of a rim protector vs a wing stopper in today's league. Even just looking at the Finals, Wiggins and Rob Williams both had hugely valuable defensive series - how do you weight the two?

Curry and the Warriors struggled mightily against Rob Williams [on one knee] in his limited Finals Minutes.

Wiggins is the type of player you want and maybe even need to simply throw on the all-star wings in the league.

I'd comfortably take Williams in a vacuum but Wiggins is an iron man which likely tilts this in his favor, even if Rob Williams may very well be the best defensive center in the league.

Williams was a fearsome shot blocker in the Finals, but I thought Curry did quite well against him on the whole.

You are right--I shouldn't have said Struggled Mightily as the Warriors with Curry and Rob Williams on the floor still posted a 108 Offense

Warriors Ortg (Williams On): 108.5
Warriors Ortg (Williams Off): 121.8