RealGM

Assuming that either 2021 or 2022 is Giannis’ peak at least this far.

2009,2010, 2012,2013,2016, 2017, 2018, 2020 and maybe 2014 too

falcolombardi wrote:2009,2010, 2012,2013,2016, 2017, 2018, 2020 and maybe 2014 too

I think i’d mostly agree. I’m doubtful on 2014 and 2020, but i’m good with the others.

Most of LeBron's seasons were better than prime Giannis.

In terms of overall goodness (not how valuable they were to their actual teams, but how they add value across different situations across the league), I would feel most confident with:

09-14, 16-18.

I think a year like 2020 may have a case but the above years I am more confident in. Some might mention 15, however I don't love how that version of Lebron scales across other teams when he is such a non-shooter. Furthermore, you add in the durability glitch with 15 (back and ankle injuries that he played through) and I like peak Giannis more than that year

LukaTheGOAT wrote:In terms of overall goodness (not how valuable they were to their actual teams, but how they add value across different situations across the league), I would feel most confident with:

09-14, 16-18.

I think a year like 2020 may have a case but the above years I am more confident in. Some might mention 15, however I don't love how that version of Lebron scales across other teams when he is such a non-shooter. Furthermore, you add in the durability glitch with 15 (back and ankle injuries that he played through) and I like peak Giannis more than that year

the 15 cavs had horrible spacing and Lebron was their second best three point shooter.

Taking 2011 and 14 when Lebron's team got as close to a title and were about as good in the regular season with way better help is an interesting type of 4d chess. The durabity is already baked into those results, as is lebron's "non-shooting"(though 2015 lebron was a much better shooter than 2011 lebron).

09, 12-13, 16

OhayoKD wrote:

LukaTheGOAT wrote:In terms of overall goodness (not how valuable they were to their actual teams, but how they add value across different situations across the league), I would feel most confident with:

09-14, 16-18.

I think a year like 2020 may have a case but the above years I am more confident in. Some might mention 15, however I don't love how that version of Lebron scales across other teams when he is such a non-shooter. Furthermore, you add in the durability glitch with 15 (back and ankle injuries that he played through) and I like peak Giannis more than that year

the 15 cavs had horrible spacing and Lebron was their second best three point shooter.

Taking 2011 and 14 when Lebron's team got as close to a title and were about as good in the regular season with way better help is an interesting type of 4d chess. The durabity is already baked into those results, as is lebron's "non-shooting"(though 2015 lebron was a much better shooter than 2011 lebron).

Lebron's shooting from 0-3, 3-10, 10-16, and 16-3P were all notably better in 11 than 15 based on bball-ref shot data. This doesn't even include the fact that 11 Lebron was more athletic and a better defender by notable margins to help making him a better player.

LukaTheGOAT wrote:

OhayoKD wrote:

LukaTheGOAT wrote:In terms of overall goodness (not how valuable they were to their actual teams, but how they add value across different situations across the league), I would feel most confident with:

09-14, 16-18.

I think a year like 2020 may have a case but the above years I am more confident in. Some might mention 15, however I don't love how that version of Lebron scales across other teams when he is such a non-shooter. Furthermore, you add in the durability glitch with 15 (back and ankle injuries that he played through) and I like peak Giannis more than that year

the 15 cavs had horrible spacing and Lebron was their second best three point shooter.

Taking 2011 and 14 when Lebron's team got as close to a title and were about as good in the regular season with way better help is an interesting type of 4d chess. The durabity is already baked into those results, as is lebron's "non-shooting"(though 2015 lebron was a much better shooter than 2011 lebron).

Lebron's shooting from 0-3, 3-10, 10-16, and 16-3P were all notably better in 11 than 15 based on bball-ref shot data. This doesn't even include the fact that 11 Lebron was more athletic and a better defender by notable margins to help making him a better player.

Also, if the spacing on the 2015 Cavs was supposedly so bad, what was 2011 then?

LukaTheGOAT wrote:

OhayoKD wrote:

LukaTheGOAT wrote:In terms of overall goodness (not how valuable they were to their actual teams, but how they add value across different situations across the league), I would feel most confident with:

09-14, 16-18.

I think a year like 2020 may have a case but the above years I am more confident in. Some might mention 15, however I don't love how that version of Lebron scales across other teams when he is such a non-shooter. Furthermore, you add in the durability glitch with 15 (back and ankle injuries that he played through) and I like peak Giannis more than that year

the 15 cavs had horrible spacing and Lebron was their second best three point shooter.

Taking 2011 and 14 when Lebron's team got as close to a title and were about as good in the regular season with way better help is an interesting type of 4d chess. The durabity is already baked into those results, as is lebron's "non-shooting"(though 2015 lebron was a much better shooter than 2011 lebron).

Lebron's shooting from 0-3, 3-10, 10-16, and 16-3P were all notably better in 11 than 15 based on bball-ref shot data. This doesn't even include the fact that 11 Lebron was more athletic and a better defender by notable margins to help making him a better player.

1. You're right. Randomly assumed lebron wasn't even taking threes in 2011 because of the "he got better as a shooter" thing but he was taking threes even in his second year
2. So you say but 2015 lebron has the better defensive impact data(much much better than 2014_ and then elevated in the playoffs where the cavs were a better postseason defense than the heat. Lebron took up a bigger defensive role and offered signifcantly more rim protection in 15 and 16. The 15 cavs were outright the best postseason defense lebron's ever been. Even the 2016 cavs who had two negative defenders in the lineup(kyrie and love) compare favorably to any of the heatles defensively in the offs.

Lebron also basically doubled his assist percentage in 2015 while mantaining a lower turnover rate.

And perhaps more important than all of that, on a team with **** relative to era spacing, he swept a 50 win srs, 60 win record team, and then went 2-1 up on the 67 win warriors without kyrie or kevin love.(kerr then responds by inserting iggy/the death lineup to win)

Considering that the cavs, with kyrie and love, played 25-30 win ball, it seems kind of far-fetched that lebron was better in 2011 and 2014 when he had a much better supporting cast and was only able to replicate(not even for 2014) what the cavs did in 2015.

No-more-rings wrote:

LukaTheGOAT wrote:

OhayoKD wrote: the 15 cavs had horrible spacing and Lebron was their second best three point shooter.

Taking 2011 and 14 when Lebron's team got as close to a title and were about as good in the regular season with way better help is an interesting type of 4d chess. The durabity is already baked into those results, as is lebron's "non-shooting"(though 2015 lebron was a much better shooter than 2011 lebron).

Lebron's shooting from 0-3, 3-10, 10-16, and 16-3P were all notably better in 11 than 15 based on bball-ref shot data. This doesn't even include the fact that 11 Lebron was more athletic and a better defender by notable margins to help making him a better player.

Also, if the spacing on the 2015 Cavs was supposedly so bad, what was 2011 then?

A team with bad spacing but dramatically more talent to compensate? 2014 their spacing was straight up better and talent was still better. Yet neither the 2011 or 2014 team were able to outdo the 2015 cavs, with kyrie and love, or without kyrie and love. Do you think matthew delladova and tt explain that?

OhayoKD wrote:

No-more-rings wrote:

LukaTheGOAT wrote:
Lebron's shooting from 0-3, 3-10, 10-16, and 16-3P were all notably better in 11 than 15 based on bball-ref shot data. This doesn't even include the fact that 11 Lebron was more athletic and a better defender by notable margins to help making him a better player.

Also, if the spacing on the 2015 Cavs was supposedly so bad, what was 2011 then?

A team with bad spacing but dramatically more talent to compensate? 2014 their spacing was straight up better and talent was still better. Yet neither the 2011 or 2014 team were able to outdo the 2015 cavs, with kyrie and love, or without kyrie and love. Do you think matthew delladova and tt explain that?

It just seems like you are trying to excuse away Lebron’s poor shooting in 2015 because of supporting cast. Regardless of cast, I don’t see how a goat caliber offensive player in his prime averages a 48 ts%. We can have a different discussion about how his all around play was, but trying to wave away his broken jumper because of supporting cast doesn’t work.

No-more-rings wrote:

OhayoKD wrote:

No-more-rings wrote:Also, if the spacing on the 2015 Cavs was supposedly so bad, what was 2011 then?

A team with bad spacing but dramatically more talent to compensate? 2014 their spacing was straight up better and talent was still better. Yet neither the 2011 or 2014 team were able to outdo the 2015 cavs, with kyrie and love, or without kyrie and love. Do you think matthew delladova and tt explain that?

It just seems like you are trying to excuse away Lebron’s poor shooting in 2015 because of supporting cast. Regardless of cast, I don’t see how a goat caliber offensive player in his prime averages a 48 ts%. We can have a different discussion about how his all around play was, but trying to wave away his broken jumper because of supporting cast doesn’t work.

I have to agree with Rings here, Lebron's jumper (probably at least partly due to back issues) was broken in the 15 playoffs. The talent on the 2011 Heat was pretty awful outside of the big 3. And I'm not entirely sure the 14 Heat had better talent than the 15 Cavs even when healthy, the Cavs had decent defense at least, I'm not sure what the Heat have over them besides marginally better spacing (I think).

Giannis won for the franchise that drafted him without leaving. Also didnt have to join a proven winner to win.

JordansBulls wrote:Giannis won for the franchise that drafted him without leaving. Also didnt have to join a proven winner to win.

So you have giannis above lebron?

capfan33 wrote:

No-more-rings wrote:

OhayoKD wrote:A team with bad spacing but dramatically more talent to compensate? 2014 their spacing was straight up better and talent was still better. Yet neither the 2011 or 2014 team were able to outdo the 2015 cavs, with kyrie and love, or without kyrie and love. Do you think matthew delladova and tt explain that?

It just seems like you are trying to excuse away Lebron’s poor shooting in 2015 because of supporting cast. Regardless of cast, I don’t see how a goat caliber offensive player in his prime averages a 48 ts%. We can have a different discussion about how his all around play was, but trying to wave away his broken jumper because of supporting cast doesn’t work.

I have to agree with Rings here, Lebron's jumper (probably at least partly due to back issues) was broken in the 15 playoffs. The talent on the 2011 Heat was pretty awful outside of the big 3. And I'm not entirely sure the 14 Heat had better talent than the 15 Cavs even when healthy, the Cavs had decent defense at least, I'm not sure what the Heat have over them besides marginally better spacing (I think).

I didn't bring up the spacing to excuse his shooting. I brought it up as a counter to "scalability". Lebron produced an unprecedented level of playoff lift without good spacing in 2015. Fair to say he wasn't being optimized.

The shooting feels like a red herring to me tbh. The point is to win, not post a high true shooting.

Also pretty skeptical 14 heat were comprable in talent to the cavs without kyrie or love. Not sure the defensive cast is an advantage considering the cavs defense was quite bad without lebron that(and surrounding) year. Lebron's indivioual impact data on the defensive end in 15 is much better than it is in 14(which impact stuff treats like the worst defensive year of his prime). I think much of the cavs much better playoff d has to do with lebron himself improving on that end.

falcolombardi wrote:

JordansBulls wrote:Giannis won for the franchise that drafted him without leaving. Also didnt have to join a proven winner to win.

So you have giannis above lebron?

as we all should.

2008-2k20.

I just think LeBron in his prime has had far superior shot-making ability and far superior offensive ability overall because of his passing. LeBron with even just Jrue Holiday and no Khris Middleton I'm pretty sure beats this years Celtics in 6. LeBron was just unfathomably good between 2009 and 2018, too.

falcolombardi wrote:

JordansBulls wrote:Giannis won for the franchise that drafted him without leaving. Also didnt have to join a proven winner to win.

So you have giannis above lebron?

We should consider it no especially with similar stats and not giving up on franchise/squad.

JordansBulls wrote:

falcolombardi wrote:

JordansBulls wrote:Giannis won for the franchise that drafted him without leaving. Also didnt have to join a proven winner to win.

So you have giannis above lebron?

We should consider it no especially with similar stats and not giving up on franchise/squad.

Is that a yes or not?