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Nash only because he might be the greatest offensive player of all time and I'm not sure Jokic is quite there yet.

Better question is, who's better on defense?

Ein Sof wrote:Better question is, who's better on defense?

IMO it's clear that Jokic is a better defensive player.

It's possible that Jokic is a bigger liability on defense for positional reasons despite being a better defender overall (I'm not sure I totally buy this argument but it's a pretty common one). But Jokic's problems on defense are very different from Nash's problems.

Jokic's problem is that he's a B or B- rim protector and he's slow / lacking in burst in a way that means he can get taken advantage of in PnR. At the same time, he's quite good in most aspects of defense outside those specific flaws: he's strong, he's smart, he's a very good rebounder, he understands and can mostly play his role in team defensive schemes, he tries hard, he generates a lot of steals.

In contrast Nash is tiny and can be abused on defense in a myriad of ways, and IMO doesn't really have any defensive attributes strong enough to make up for it.

RCM88x wrote:Nash only because he might be the greatest offensive player of all time and I'm not sure Jokic is quite there yet.

Interesting that I've heard that quite a bit as well. And yet the poll suggests otherwise...

This is a tough one. Nash has some positional advantages simply by virtue of having the ball more. Jokic even as a point center depends on other players to get him the ball.

Can Nash carry Denver’s level of offensive talent last year to 6th best in the league?

Nash lead the #1 offense in the league for 10 consecutive years. Call me when Jokic does that.

Peregrine01 wrote:Can Nash carry Denver’s level of offensive talent last year to 6th best in the league?

He probably could do it at age 35.

I still would like to know in the case of Nash, how if he’s arguably the goat offensive player like many say, how he usually doesn’t even crack the top 25 in peak or career projects. Jokic just went I think 10 or 12 spots higher in peaks, so I don’t see how you consider Nash a better offensive player but not better overall. Nash is a negative defender, but he’s going to hurt you less than a below average center right? This is something the board needs to start being consistent and more transparent about. Also, are we going to continue to slide into this realm, where so many people think team ORTGs is like the be all end all when it comes to these debates? In regards to Jokic, it has to matter a lot that he’s a bigger and more difficult scoring force by a quite a lot. He can’t match Nash’s playmaking as a big man of course, but his passing is as good as it gets for a center and frankly outside of Shaq i’ve never seen a big make people look so silly trying to stop him. He embarrassed the Warriors in those last few games, and they’re really lucky he didn’t have a real supporting cast around him.

Peregrine01 wrote:This is a tough one. Nash has some positional advantages simply by virtue of having the ball more. Jokic even as a point center depends on other players to get him the ball.

Can Nash carry Denver’s level of offensive talent last year to 6th best in the league?

2012 nash at 37 years old led the suns to the 9th best offense

His main teammates were 39 years old grant hill, marcin gortar, jared dudley, channing frye and shannon brown

No-more-rings wrote:I still would like to know in the case of Nash, how if he’s arguably the goat offensive player like many say, how he usually doesn’t even crack the top 25 in peak or career projects. Jokic just went I think 10 or 12 spots higher in peaks, so I don’t see how you consider Nash a better offensive player but not better overall. Nash is a negative defender, but he’s going to hurt you less than a below average center right? This is something the board needs to start being consistent and more transparent about. Also, are we going to continue to slide into this realm, where so many people think team ORTGs is like the be all end all when it comes to these debates? In regards to Jokic, it has to matter a lot that he’s a bigger and more difficult scoring force by a quite a lot. He can’t match Nash’s playmaking as a big man of course, but his passing is as good as it gets for a center and frankly outside of Shaq i’ve never seen a big make people look so silly trying to stop him. He embarrassed the Warriors in those last few games, and they’re really lucky he didn’t have a real supporting cast around him.

As someone who had nash a fair bit higher he ended up i am qualified to comment here

There is nothingh inherently better about scoring more if it doesnt translate to better offense. Jokic being a higher volume scorer doesnt mean anythingh by itself except if it translates to result advantages of some kind

Jokic being the best big man passer doesnt make him better than nash who is arguably the best passer ever. period

Nash scoring, efficiency, turnover and assists profile and even team offense results are very similar to magic johnson. And nobody would ever say magic cannot be better offensively than jokic cause he doesnt score enough

No-more-rings wrote:I still would like to know in the case of Nash, how if he’s arguably the goat offensive player like many say, how he usually doesn’t even crack the top 25 in peak or career projects. Jokic just went I think 10 or 12 spots higher in peaks, so I don’t see how you consider Nash a better offensive player but not better overall. Nash is a negative defender, but he’s going to hurt you less than a below average center right? This is something the board needs to start being consistent and more transparent about.

Oh, but the gap on defense is enormous. Nash is a bad point guard, 2022 Jokic is an average (or above) center.

LeBron James and Kawhi Leonard are both in contention for GOAT defensive wing, and both are good offensive players, so are they equal?

No-more-rings wrote:I still would like to know in the case of Nash, how if he’s arguably the goat offensive player like many say, how he usually doesn’t even crack the top 25 in peak or career projects.

Because his boxscore numbers are nothing crazy and he never won a title. Both may as well disqualify him for a good chunk of the voting bloc.

Jokic just went I think 10 or 12 spots higher in peaks, so I don’t see how you consider Nash a better offensive player but not better overall.

A lot of people do not see Nash that way. Look at the poll. Any Harden/Nash debate. Hell, any Stockton/Nash debate.

Nash is a negative defender, but he’s going to hurt you less than a below average center right?

That is a relative argument to which not everyone subscribes. Not everyone is thinking in terms of team-building. It is easier to build a reasonable defence around Nash by virtue of more naturally pairing him with top rim protectors. However, if we had the exact same team regardless, the defensive results with Jokic could be better.

Of course, the funny thing is how that does not consistently cut both ways, with Jokic often credited as both a positional outlier on offence and as reasonably okay on defence because well big men just have that much innate defensive value!

This is something the board needs to start being consistent and more transparent about. Also, are we going to continue to slide into this realm, where so many people think team ORTGs is like the be all end all when it comes to these debates?

Yeah I prefer just quickly checking BPM.

In regards to Jokic, it has to matter a lot that he’s a bigger and more difficult scoring force by a quite a lot.

That is what makes it a debate. Lebron and Jordan do not get put alongside or potentially above Nash on offence because anyone believes they are his equal as a shooter or passer.

He can’t match Nash’s playmaking as a big man of course, but his passing is as good as it gets for a center and frankly outside of Shaq i’ve never seen a big make people look so silly trying to stop him. He embarrassed the Warriors in those last few games, and they’re really lucky he didn’t have a real supporting cast around him.

Interesting interpretation of the series. I was left feeling embarrassed by how easily they were getting whatever shots they wanted — but I suppose that plays back to positional relativity.

No-more-rings wrote:I still would like to know in the case of Nash, how if he’s arguably the goat offensive player like many say, how he usually doesn’t even crack the top 25 in peak or career projects. Jokic just went I think 10 or 12 spots higher in peaks, so I don’t see how you consider Nash a better offensive player but not better overall. Nash is a negative defender, but he’s going to hurt you less than a below average center right? This is something the board needs to start being consistent and more transparent about. Also, are we going to continue to slide into this realm, where so many people think team ORTGs is like the be all end all when it comes to these debates? In regards to Jokic, it has to matter a lot that he’s a bigger and more difficult scoring force by a quite a lot. He can’t match Nash’s playmaking as a big man of course, but his passing is as good as it gets for a center and frankly outside of Shaq i’ve never seen a big make people look so silly trying to stop him. He embarrassed the Warriors in those last few games, and they’re really lucky he didn’t have a real supporting cast around him.

It’s almost like people have different opinions about Nash, and that the people that think he’s arguably the greatest offensive player ever aren’t the same people that don’t rank him in the top 25.

You do this a lot, with false equivalencies and generalizations about “the board”, and it’s just not a good look imo.

Dooley wrote:In contrast Nash is tiny and can be abused on defense in a myriad of ways, and IMO doesn't really have any defensive attributes strong enough to make up for it.

This has implications, yeah? Can anyone under 6'8 ever be considered better than a good player of that height or over? There isn't really a perimeter player in league history who can't be exploited by switches... and not a lot of bigs who can't really be effectively attacked that way either, right?

I picked Nash but really my answere is ask again in like 5 years

Jaivl wrote:

No-more-rings wrote:I still would like to know in the case of Nash, how if he’s arguably the goat offensive player like many say, how he usually doesn’t even crack the top 25 in peak or career projects. Jokic just went I think 10 or 12 spots higher in peaks, so I don’t see how you consider Nash a better offensive player but not better overall. Nash is a negative defender, but he’s going to hurt you less than a below average center right? This is something the board needs to start being consistent and more transparent about.

Oh, but the gap on defense is enormous. Nash is a bad point guard, 2022 Jokic is an average (or above) center.

LeBron James and Kawhi Leonard are both in contention for GOAT defensive wing, and both are good offensive players, so are they equal?

I feel the only reason Jokic ended up where he was were concerns over his playoff D though

Jaivl wrote:

No-more-rings wrote:I still would like to know in the case of Nash, how if he’s arguably the goat offensive player like many say, how he usually doesn’t even crack the top 25 in peak or career projects. Jokic just went I think 10 or 12 spots higher in peaks, so I don’t see how you consider Nash a better offensive player but not better overall. Nash is a negative defender, but he’s going to hurt you less than a below average center right? This is something the board needs to start being consistent and more transparent about.

Oh, but the gap on defense is enormous. Nash is a bad point guard, 2022 Jokic is an average (or above) center.

LeBron James and Kawhi Leonard are both in contention for GOAT defensive wing, and both are good offensive players, so are they equal?

I highly doubt that many have Lebron James not only in their top 5 defensive SFs of all time, but maybe not even top 10. It's debatable top 10. I think that his 2013 should have been defensive MVP over Marc. And will go down comfortably as a top 5 defensive season for SF, maybe even top 3. His 3-5 year peak is there but I just don't see the career value to put him as a better career defender over...

Scottie Pippen, Kawhi, Ron Artest, Dennis Rodman or Andre Iguodala. Michael Cooper, Bruce Bowen, Jimmy Butler, Hondo and Grant Hill all have cases over him too.

therealbig3 wrote:

No-more-rings wrote:I still would like to know in the case of Nash, how if he’s arguably the goat offensive player like many say, how he usually doesn’t even crack the top 25 in peak or career projects. Jokic just went I think 10 or 12 spots higher in peaks, so I don’t see how you consider Nash a better offensive player but not better overall. Nash is a negative defender, but he’s going to hurt you less than a below average center right? This is something the board needs to start being consistent and more transparent about. Also, are we going to continue to slide into this realm, where so many people think team ORTGs is like the be all end all when it comes to these debates? In regards to Jokic, it has to matter a lot that he’s a bigger and more difficult scoring force by a quite a lot. He can’t match Nash’s playmaking as a big man of course, but his passing is as good as it gets for a center and frankly outside of Shaq i’ve never seen a big make people look so silly trying to stop him. He embarrassed the Warriors in those last few games, and they’re really lucky he didn’t have a real supporting cast around him.

It’s almost like people have different opinions about Nash, and that the people that think he’s arguably the greatest offensive player ever aren’t the same people that don’t rank him in the top 25.

You do this a lot, with false equivalencies and generalizations about “the board”, and it’s just not a good look imo.

Eh, it’s worth asking since I don’t see recall seeing anyone vote Nash ahead overall. So yeah it’s more about trying to guage how much Nash hurts a team on defense compared to Jokic if he does at all. It’s not specific to just this comparison, but also Nash in general.

I’m sure you could add a bit more than vague statements, and attacks on my character. It’s not a “good look” either for you to show up out of the blue just to bitch about how someone posts meanwhile haven’t participated much here in a long time let alone add anything of value. I guess you’re living on past glory of your thousands of posts from the past though.

mdonnelly1989 wrote:

Jaivl wrote:

No-more-rings wrote:I still would like to know in the case of Nash, how if he’s arguably the goat offensive player like many say, how he usually doesn’t even crack the top 25 in peak or career projects. Jokic just went I think 10 or 12 spots higher in peaks, so I don’t see how you consider Nash a better offensive player but not better overall. Nash is a negative defender, but he’s going to hurt you less than a below average center right? This is something the board needs to start being consistent and more transparent about.

Oh, but the gap on defense is enormous. Nash is a bad point guard, 2022 Jokic is an average (or above) center.

LeBron James and Kawhi Leonard are both in contention for GOAT defensive wing, and both are good offensive players, so are they equal?

I highly doubt that many have Lebron James not only in their top 5 defensive SFs of all time, but maybe not even top 10. It's debatable top 10. I think that his 2013 should have been defensive MVP over Marc. And will go down comfortably as a top 5 defensive season for SF, maybe even top 3. His 3-5 year peak is there but I just don't see the career value to put him as a better career defender over...

Scottie Pippen, Kawhi, Ron Artest, Dennis Rodman or Andre Iguodala. Michael Cooper, Bruce Bowen, Jimmy Butler, Hondo and Grant Hill all have cases over him too.

You believe Grant Hill was that level of defender?