Guards peaks ahead of Jerry West

[70sFan]

I've been watching prime Jerry West games recently and I've been thinking about his peak among all-time guards. Who do you put ahead of him on such a list and why? I'd like to hear at least a short explaination for each choice.

The more I watch him, the more I struggle to pick anyone over him with a big dose of certainty.

[HeartBreakKid]

Michael Jordan.

[penbeast0]

In his own era, he didn't play the big minutes that Oscar did so even though I think he may have been better minute per minute, he might not have had the total impact. On the other hand, he has a playoff advantage on Oscar as the Lakers generally went deeper into the playoffs.

V. Jordan and Magic, the other two guys generally ahead of West on GOAT lists, it depends what you value most but you can certainly make a case for those two.

Compared to the minute limited guards of today's league, his minute totals in his healthy years dwarf those of Kawhi Leonard and even Steph Curry though Curry seems even more impactful per minute on the court (it's easier for guards and wings to have a bigger impact today but rarer to play big minutes).

Those 4 would be the place I would start my analysis; not sure any other guards are quite in that category (Frazier? Nash? Kobe? Wade?).

[Colbinii]

Michael Jordan.

Arguments for CP3, Curry, Nash, Harden, Wade and Magic in my book.

[No-more-rings]

For me only Jordan and Magic are definitely ahead. I think mostly everyone would agree with those two. Others with a case, Wade, Curry, Oscar and perhaps Kobe but none of those guys have clear seperation above.

[capfan33]

MJ, Magic and probably Curry. Would have West clearly 4th, I do think he was better than Oscar at his best but Oscar was more consistent.

[Dooley]

MJ, Magic, Steph ahead

West, Wade and Kobe are all pretty close

[MyUniBroDavis]

I think if in era, probably Jordan magic Curry? Wade and Oscar and Kobe all around there

[LukaTheGOAT]

The only guard I pick over him with strong certainty is MJ.

I think the error bars for Jerry West are wide enough, that you could get him to being the 2nd best guard peak ever. In particular, I think appropriately gauging his playmaking and defensive value would be what decides this.

First off, I think West is one of the 5 greatest scorers ever.

From 64-66 in the PS, Jerry West averaged an inflation adjusted 29.6 pts per 75 possessions (rTS% of 7.3%). Some other notable scoring peaks from guards:

Kobe (07-09)-Inflation Adjusted 30.5 pts per 75 (rTS% of 4.1%)

Kobe (08-10)-Inflation Adjusted 30.4 pts per 75 (rTS% of 3.9%)

Kobe (06-08)-Inflation Adjusted 29.2 pts per 75 (rTS% of 4.8%)


Dwyane Wade (07-10)-Inflation Adjusted 30.6 pts per 75 (rTS% of 4%)

Dwyane Wade-Inflation (09-11)- Inflation Adjusted 29.5 pts per 75 (rTS% of 5.5%)

Dwyane Wade (06-09)- Inflation Adjusted 29.1 pts per 75 (rTS% of 5%)

Dwyane Wade (05-07)- Inflation Adjusted 28.4 pts per 75 (rTS% of 5%)


Curry (15-17)-Inflation Adjusted 28.8 pts per 75 (rTS% of 8.6%)

However, I think what makes me put West above these guys, because of the era he played in where offenses and scoring in general were less efficient. That means that every extra point per possession, and 1 TS% above league averaged much more in terms of value because of how scoring was compressed. Margins were compressed and therefore a point per possession or a TS% point mattered more in the 60s than in modern days.

I think this shows up in a metric, such as ScoreVal (ScoreVal = Scoring value, an estimate of a player’s points per 100 impact from scoring only), which attempts to take in account a player's environment. Including only 1 stretch per player, Jerry West has the third highest 3-year PS scoring peak ever per ScoreVal.

3-year PS ScoreVal
Jerry West-3
Curry-1.9
Kobe-1.6
Wade-1.6

I think the bigger question is what type of playmaking value you think West compared to other more modern guards, as back in West's day it was harder separation through creating for teammates, due to it just being harder to create-less spacing, stricter ball-handling rules, less passing angles due to congested spacing, harder to drive, etc. West was a great playmaker for his era, but how he does compare to some of the best playmaking guards for the modern era is perhaps a bigger question. However, West could really pass;

"West averaged 6.1 assists per game (stellar numbers for a shooting/combo guard) throughout his best scoring seasons of 1961–62 through 1969–70. As his scoring took a downturn throughout his twilight seasons, West’s assist per game averages in the following three seasons increased to a very remarkable 9.3 as he served as the lead facilitator on some of the best offenses in league history at the time"-Rohan Kamat https://medium.com/@RK001/the-truth-behind-jerry-wests-career-and-nba-finals-performances-6dea4496e3a5

Then there is the defense. I feel as if West was likely at least an all-nba level guard, based on the info we had. But there is perhaps the possibility that he was an all-time level guard. We sadly, don't have defensive stats for most of West's career, but he really did seem to fit the billing. West was a great shot-blocker with a 6'9 wingspan, and could be seen blocking other guard's jumpers on more than a few occasions.

But this undersells him, as he perhaps is one of the more disruptive perimeter defenders ever; one piece of information I find interesting is that Jerry West in his final season (1973-74 season) led the entire league in steals per 75 possessions, at 3.1 (inflation-adjusted). It was only 31 games, but I wonder if an older West was capable of this, I am curious what a younger, more spry, and less-injury prone West might be capable of. As I mentioned, I think offense was generally worse in West's time, and the rules allowed for more impactful defenders. I don't necessarily think it is just the bigs that perhaps saw their value as higher than ever, but rather I think it is possible guard defense was more impactful then as well.

It is possible that West challenges up the best guard defenders of the modern era (or maybe more???), while also being a top 5 scorer ever, and not being a black-hole on offense. And that to me is enticing enough to see the possibility of him being as high as #2 in a guard's peaks list.

[70sFan]

I've been thinking, is there any reason to pick Jordan clearly ahead of West? If we exclude era comparisons for a moment, what separates Jordan from West, to the point that we can no longer compare them?

Note that I have Jordan clearly ahead for now, but I've been thinking if I'm not underrating West recently. I try not to go too far with re-evaluation, but the more I watch him, the more I see a top 10 peak ever. He's one of the best scorers in NBA history, one of the best guard defenders ever and excellent passer who didn't lose any ground here next to MJ. I guess you can make a case that he couldn't impact the game in the same way MJ did because of different eras, but is this enough to have them that far apart?

[Dutchball97]

I've been thinking, is there any reason to pick Jordan clearly ahead of West? If we exclude era comparisons for a moment, what separates Jordan from West, to the point that we can no longer compare them?

Note that I have Jordan clearly ahead for now, but I've been thinking if I'm not underrating West recently. I try not to go too far with re-evaluation, but the more I watch him, the more I see a top 10 peak ever. He's one of the best scorers in NBA history, one of the best guard defenders ever and excellent passer who didn't lose any ground here next to MJ. I guess you can make a case that he couldn't impact the game in the same way MJ did because of different eras, but is this enough to have them that far apart?

I kind of get where you're coming from but even if you put West in the 80s/90s I just don't really see how he'd dominate the league like MJ. West is one of the best scorers, but Jordan is the best. I'm also high on West's defense but he didn't have the size and positional versatility of MJ there either. Playmaking you could make an argument for West but I don't think it swings the pendulum enough.

[70sFan]

I kind of get where you're coming from but even if you put West in the 80s/90s I just don't really see how he'd dominate the league like MJ. West is one of the best scorers, but Jordan is the best. I'm also high on West's defense but he didn't have the size and positional versatility of MJ there either. Playmaking you could make an argument for West but I don't think it swings the pendulum enough.

What limitations does West scoring game has compared to MJ that wouldn't put him on that level?

West didn't have the size of Jordan, but he wasn't that far behind to be honest. 6'4 without the shoes with 6'9 wingspan isn't that much smaller and I think West could capably guard 1-3, which is all Jordan really bring to the table.

I don't say you are wrong, I just want to get deeper with this discussion.

[MyUniBroDavis]

I've been thinking, is there any reason to pick Jordan clearly ahead of West? If we exclude era comparisons for a moment, what separates Jordan from West, to the point that we can no longer compare them?

Note that I have Jordan clearly ahead for now, but I've been thinking if I'm not underrating West recently. I try not to go too far with re-evaluation, but the more I watch him, the more I see a top 10 peak ever. He's one of the best scorers in NBA history, one of the best guard defenders ever and excellent passer who didn't lose any ground here next to MJ. I guess you can make a case that he couldn't impact the game in the same way MJ did because of different eras, but is this enough to have them that far apart?

Wait by excluding era comparisons do you mean comparing them on an absolute sense?

[70sFan]

I've been thinking, is there any reason to pick Jordan clearly ahead of West? If we exclude era comparisons for a moment, what separates Jordan from West, to the point that we can no longer compare them?

Note that I have Jordan clearly ahead for now, but I've been thinking if I'm not underrating West recently. I try not to go too far with re-evaluation, but the more I watch him, the more I see a top 10 peak ever. He's one of the best scorers in NBA history, one of the best guard defenders ever and excellent passer who didn't lose any ground here next to MJ. I guess you can make a case that he couldn't impact the game in the same way MJ did because of different eras, but is this enough to have them that far apart?

Wait by excluding era comparisons do you mean comparing them on an absolute sense?

Not necessarily. In this case, I'm asking for in era comparisons, but without comparing differences of each era. That means that if you are lower on the 1960s, you don't hold it against West here.

Absolute sense is a different, although equally interesting discussion. It is significantly harder to do though.

[Dutchball97]

I kind of get where you're coming from but even if you put West in the 80s/90s I just don't really see how he'd dominate the league like MJ. West is one of the best scorers, but Jordan is the best. I'm also high on West's defense but he didn't have the size and positional versatility of MJ there either. Playmaking you could make an argument for West but I don't think it swings the pendulum enough.

What limitations does West scoring game has compared to MJ that wouldn't put him on that level?

West didn't have the size of Jordan, but he wasn't that far behind to be honest. 6'4 without the shoes with 6'9 wingspan isn't that much smaller and I think West could capably guard 1-3, which is all Jordan really bring to the table.

I don't say you are wrong, I just want to get deeper with this discussion.

It seems like a high bar to clear. You're arguing West should be a top 10 peak and then you compare him to the GOAT peak. My biggest reservation is that MJ was by far the best offensive player in the 90s, while I'd put West behind Oscar and Wilt on that end in his own era.

[MyUniBroDavis]

I've been thinking, is there any reason to pick Jordan clearly ahead of West? If we exclude era comparisons for a moment, what separates Jordan from West, to the point that we can no longer compare them?

Note that I have Jordan clearly ahead for now, but I've been thinking if I'm not underrating West recently. I try not to go too far with re-evaluation, but the more I watch him, the more I see a top 10 peak ever. He's one of the best scorers in NBA history, one of the best guard defenders ever and excellent passer who didn't lose any ground here next to MJ. I guess you can make a case that he couldn't impact the game in the same way MJ did because of different eras, but is this enough to have them that far apart?

Wait by excluding era comparisons do you mean comparing them on an absolute sense?

Not necessarily. In this case, I'm asking for in era comparisons, but without comparing differences of each era. That means that if you are lower on the 1960s, you don't hold it against West here.

Absolute sense is a different, although equally interesting discussion. It is significantly harder to do though.

If we’re going solely how impactful they were in their own era, I think there’s a pretty good argument there was a bigger seperation between west and Oscar vs the average guards of the time than Jordan CS the average guards of the time, I’d assume in terms of top tier guys bigs had bigger impact relatively so it’s a + to them that they were as impactful as they were

[70sFan]

I kind of get where you're coming from but even if you put West in the 80s/90s I just don't really see how he'd dominate the league like MJ. West is one of the best scorers, but Jordan is the best. I'm also high on West's defense but he didn't have the size and positional versatility of MJ there either. Playmaking you could make an argument for West but I don't think it swings the pendulum enough.

What limitations does West scoring game has compared to MJ that wouldn't put him on that level?

West didn't have the size of Jordan, but he wasn't that far behind to be honest. 6'4 without the shoes with 6'9 wingspan isn't that much smaller and I think West could capably guard 1-3, which is all Jordan really bring to the table.

I don't say you are wrong, I just want to get deeper with this discussion.

It seems like a high bar to clear. You're arguing West should be a top 10 peak and then you compare him to the GOAT peak. My biggest reservation is that MJ was by far the best offensive player in the 90s, while I'd put West behind Oscar and Wilt on that end in his own era.

Well, that's true if you assume that Jordan had the GOAT peak and I don't view him as such. Peaks in general aren't far apart in top 10 to me.

Jordan wasn't by far the best offensive player of his era. Magic has a legitimate case over him and some may argue for Bird as well. You may say that he didn't have any rivals after Magic retirement, but he didn't become a better player after 1991, so I don't think it's a good argument.

I also disagree that Wilt was a better offensive player than West. I like Wilt's offense, but West was on another level in my opinion.

[Jaivl]

I guess you can make a case that he couldn't impact the game in the same way MJ did because of different eras, but is this enough to have them that far apart?

Honestly... yes, that's ultimately it. He played on an unfriendly era for guards, but trying to correct for that just feels like too much abstraction IMO.

[70sFan]

I guess you can make a case that he couldn't impact the game in the same way MJ did because of different eras, but is this enough to have them that far apart?

Honestly... yes, that's ultimately it. He played on an unfriendly era for guards, but trying to correct for that just feels like too much abstraction IMO.

I think that's the main problem here. On the other hand, even if he didn't have the same impact per possession as later perimeter players, he played so many possessions that it could be negated to some degree (this works for Oscar even more so, he played like 115 possessions per game).

[Stalwart]

The only guard I pick over him with strong certainty is MJ.

I think the error bars for Jerry West are wide enough, that you could get him to being the 2nd best guard peak ever. In particular, I think appropriately gauging his playmaking and defensive value would be what decides this.

First off, I think West is one of the 5 greatest scorers ever.

From 64-66 in the PS, Jerry West averaged an inflation adjusted 29.6 pts per 75 possessions (rTS% of 7.3%). Some other notable scoring peaks from guards:

Kobe (07-09)-Inflation Adjusted 30.5 pts per 75 (rTS% of 4.1%)

Kobe (08-10)-Inflation Adjusted 30.4 pts per 75 (rTS% of 3.9%)

Kobe (06-08)-Inflation Adjusted 29.2 pts per 75 (rTS% of 4.8%)


Dwyane Wade (07-10)-Inflation Adjusted 30.6 pts per 75 (rTS% of 4%)

Dwyane Wade-Inflation (09-11)- Inflation Adjusted 29.5 pts per 75 (rTS% of 5.5%)

Dwyane Wade (06-09)- Inflation Adjusted 29.1 pts per 75 (rTS% of 5%)

Dwyane Wade (05-07)- Inflation Adjusted 28.4 pts per 75 (rTS% of 5%)


Curry (15-17)-Inflation Adjusted 28.8 pts per 75 (rTS% of 8.6%)

However, I think what makes me put West above these guys, because of the era he played in where offenses and scoring in general were less efficient. That means that every extra point per possession, and 1 TS% above league averaged much more in terms of value because of how scoring was compressed. Margins were compressed and therefore a point per possession or a TS% point mattered more in the 60s than in modern days.

I think this shows up in a metric, such as ScoreVal (ScoreVal = Scoring value, an estimate of a player’s points per 100 impact from scoring only), which attempts to take in account a player's environment. Including only 1 stretch per player, Jerry West has the third highest 3-year PS scoring peak ever per ScoreVal.

3-year PS ScoreVal
Jerry West-3
Curry-1.9
Kobe-1.6
Wade-1.6

I think the bigger question is what type of playmaking value you think West compared to other more modern guards, as back in West's day it was harder separation through creating for teammates, due to it just being harder to create-less spacing, stricter ball-handling rules, less passing angles due to congested spacing, harder to drive, etc. West was a great playmaker for his era, but how he does compare to some of the best playmaking guards for the modern era is perhaps a bigger question. However, West could really pass;

"West averaged 6.1 assists per game (stellar numbers for a shooting/combo guard) throughout his best scoring seasons of 1961–62 through 1969–70. As his scoring took a downturn throughout his twilight seasons, West’s assist per game averages in the following three seasons increased to a very remarkable 9.3 as he served as the lead facilitator on some of the best offenses in league history at the time"-Rohan Kamat https://medium.com/@RK001/the-truth-behind-jerry-wests-career-and-nba-finals-performances-6dea4496e3a5

Then there is the defense. I feel as if West was likely at least an all-nba level guard, based on the info we had. But there is perhaps the possibility that he was an all-time level guard. We sadly, don't have defensive stats for most of West's career, but he really did seem to fit the billing. West was a great shot-blocker with a 6'9 wingspan, and could be seen blocking other guard's jumpers on more than a few occasions.

But this undersells him, as he perhaps is one of the more disruptive perimeter defenders ever; one piece of information I find interesting is that Jerry West in his final season (1973-74 season) led the entire league in steals per 75 possessions, at 3.1 (inflation-adjusted). It was only 31 games, but I wonder if an older West was capable of this, I am curious what a younger, more spry, and less-injury prone West might be capable of. As I mentioned, I think offense was generally worse in West's time, and the rules allowed for more impactful defenders. I don't necessarily think it is just the bigs that perhaps saw their value as higher than ever, but rather I think it is possible guard defense was more impactful then as well.

It is possible that West challenges up the best guard defenders of the modern era (or maybe more???), while also being a top 5 scorer ever, and not being a black-hole on offense. And that to me is enticing enough to see the possibility of him being as high as #2 in a guard's peaks list.

The scoring was compressed is because players didn't know how to score as well as they did in later years. There was a lot more possessions during Jerry West's era. Thats because teams were running and gunning, playing by the seat of their pants. In later years teams took their time to find a good shot which led to less possessions but more efficient scoring in general.

Trying to measure how easy or difficult it is to score simply by looking at efficiency ratings because ike I said guys just didn't know how to score as well in West's era. Also, extra possessions make it easier to score more points.