RealGM

Who ya got?

Better peak season is subjective, but I would easily take Tatum over Lillard on my team.

What exactly is being asked?

Peak Tatum against peak Lillard? Or peak Tatum against Lillard right now?

I don't think we've seen Tatum's true peak yet but his edge defensively wins this battle for me

I'd take Lillard. Tatum's playmaking and shot-creation is suspect for me.

I'm still taking peak Lillard and I'm kinda stunned the poll is this lopsided. I think Dame's gotten really underrated as a guy who can essentially anchor Top-5 offenses, whereas I really question how much upside Tatum still has to "unlock" in that department. If teh question is who do I take right now to build a team around, then it's Tatum pretty easily, for obvious reasons.

Ron Swanson wrote:I'm still taking peak Lillard and I'm kinda stunned the poll is this lopsided.

I was shocked too. That's why I asked the question [post #3], though I see the poll does stipulate peak versions for both.

I don't know if it's short memory or what. Lillard was a remarkable offensive anchor just a couple years ago. Yes it's a large defensive edge to Tatum, obviously. But it's not particularly close offensively.

It's peak vs peak. I don't get the confusion.

trex_8063 wrote:

Ron Swanson wrote:I'm still taking peak Lillard and I'm kinda stunned the poll is this lopsided.

I was shocked too. That's why I asked the question [post #3], though I see the poll does stipulate peak versions for both.

I don't know if it's short memory or what. Lillard was a remarkable offensive anchor just a couple years ago. Yes it's a large defensive edge to Tatum, obviously. But it's not particularly close offensively.

Damian Lillard's offense drops off quite a bit in the post season. In his only run with a decent sample size his stats are not significantly better than Tatum's. Lillard's passing isn't great for a point guard. He is really, really, really, bad on defense - about as bad as you can get.

Not everyone is big on Damian Lillard. I think there are some doubts about his scoring resiliency, and scoring is what his thing is supposed to be. Without a massive scoring edge in the post season it doesn't seem crazy to take Tatum, he's hardly chop liver.

Ron Swanson wrote:I'm still taking peak Lillard and I'm kinda stunned the poll is this lopsided. I think Dame's gotten really underrated as a guy who can essentially anchor Top-5 offenses, whereas I really question how much upside Tatum still has to "unlock" in that department. If teh question is who do I take right now to build a team around, then it's Tatum pretty easily, for obvious reasons.

1) Its a bit disingenuous to state "Can essentially anchor Top-5 offenses" when his teams were slanted exponentially to the offensive side of the ball. Perhaps you weren't aware, but here are his big minute teammates from 2019-2021 [The Period of 3 years you are referring to].

2019: C.J. McCollum, Al-Forouq Aminu, Jusuf Nurkic, Evan Turner, Maurice Harkless, Seth Curry, Zach Collins, Jake Layman, Meyers Leonard

In 2019, the team had two [3 if you consider Zach Collins] as offensive-slanted big men and floor spacing, sacrificing defense [Rim protection AND mobility] with other Offensive wings/guards [Layman, Curry, and Obviously McCollum].

The fact this offense was so great is primarily Lillard as the team lacked top-end talent but they crashed the offensive glass relentlessly [1st in Oreb%]. Was Lillard the reason the team was 1st in OReb%? The team was outside the Top 10 in every other offensive advanced metric [TS%, eFG%, 3PAr, FTr].

2020: C.J. McCollum, Hassan Whiteside, Carmelo Anthony, Anfernee Simons [Bad Player overall], Gary Trent Jr, Kent Bazemore

This is the year where the team, while having all Offensive oriented players sans Whiteside [Still an offensive minded big imo], the team exceeded expectations because of Lillard [Low TOV%]. Injuries wrecked the roster but once against we see them going small with tons of guards around Lillard producing a terrific defense [And 28th ranked defense].

2021: C.J. McCollum, Norman Powell, Robert Covington, Enes Freedom, Carmelo Anthony, Derrick Jones Jr, Anfernee Simons, Gary Trent Jr, Jusuf Nurcik

[GTJ traded for Powell]

Again, basically all players here are offensive oriented, many 3-guard line-ups with Enes Freedom at center. 1st in TOV% and 3rd in 3PAR. 2nd in Ortg, 29th in Drtg.

2. Trae Young can also anchor top offenses, do you also have him ahead of Tatum? That seems like a parallel here and not outlandish.

3. As for upside, Tatum provides significant value as a 2-way player and can be a 1A/1B on a deep championship team [See 2022 Celtics] but there is clearly upside there. He can improve his handle, shot selection/quality and isolation scoring. Ironically, both quality and scoring are linked to his handle. As his handle increases, expect Tatums overall game to increase and improve.

For the record, I am undecided as I think both fall into the "Weak MVP to All-NBA Tier" players who likely won't be the best player on Championship teams but would be strong 2nd stars. I simply don't think it's as easy as looking at Team Ortg for a 3-year period and drawing a conclusion while stating a 24-year old wing with great measurables has "Nothing else to add to his game".

Lillard made top 75 all time for a reason. RealGM just remembers what happened recently and that’s Tatum being a 8-12 best player in the league and Lillard being mundane by his standards. Peak Lillard was just a notch below Curry and easily better than last year’s aka peak Tatum. The results of this poll are embarrassing.

Kingdibs19 wrote:Lillard made top 75 all time for a reason. RealGM just remembers what happened recently and that’s Tatum being a 8-12 best player in the league and Lillard being mundane by his standards. Peak Lillard was just a notch below Curry and easily better than last year’s aka peak Tatum. The results of this poll are embarrassing.

1) Top 75

You realize Earl Monroe was also Top 75 and nobody is taking his peak over Tatum.

2. Recently? Lillard didn't play in the 1970s dude, he literally peaked between 2019-2021...

3. Do you have Lillards peak as being better than a 8-12 player in the league? Which year would that be? Which 7 players were better than Tatum this year?

4. How big is "A notch" below Curry? Could Lillard ever come close to replicating Curry's off-ball impact/gravity or playoff resiliency?

I see it similarly to the current Luka vs Tatum comp, where I lean Tatum. I'll go with Tatum by a slim margin here too. Close enough that surrounding teammates could change my choice.

Dame is a notably better on ball player and though he's a stronger off-ball player than Luka I still prefer Tatum. Defensively it's obviously not even close.

Kingdibs19 wrote:Lillard made top 75 all time for a reason.

Yeah, the reason is that the top 75 sucked ass.

Not sure we've even seen Tatum's peak yet as he's still only 19yo, but I'm pretty confident taking him here. 3-year peak Dame from 2019 through 2021 has been a bonafide elite volume scorer and very solid playmaker overall, but that defensive gap is something else

In terms of volume scoring, Tatum over the last 3 postseasons (hefty sample size of 46 games in years 3-5 of his young career) he's volume scored at 26.2 ppg on 56.4% TS. Impressive enough on its own, but significantly moreso when you consider the opposing defenses he's been up against: 9 games vs 2021/2022 Brooklyn and 4 vs a Simmons-less 2020 Philly in the three 1st round series, but then 33 intense playoff games vs championship-caliber defenses in 2020/2022 Miami, 2022 Milwaukee, 2020 Toronto and 2022 Golden State

2019-21 Dame scored 28.2 ppg on 59.6% TS in the PS, but in only 26 games with exactly half of them coming vs suspect Denver Nuggets playoff defenses. The other 13 however were against the very formidable 2019 Thunder, end-stage dynasty Warriors in 2019, then that dominant Lakers defense in the bubble

So I think volume scoring is pretty close, at least in the playoffs and when accounting for opponent strength, but I'll give a slight edge to peak Dame who is also the superior playmaker even if we only consider Tatum's 2022 where he was much improved in that regard. So I've got Dame as the better offensive player overall, but not nearly that much better to sufficiently mitigate the defensive gap where it's not just the fact that Dame is a liability on D, but also that Tatum happens to be an extremely valuable defensive asset