RealGM

Hello.

Link to the project idea thread.

The project will contain 1v1 comparisons between the top 10 ever in the latest 3 top 100 project on RealGM which are LeBron James, Michael Jordan, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Bill Russell, Tim Duncan, Wilt Chamberlain, Magic Johnson, Shaquille O'Neal, Hakeem Olajuwon and Larry Bird.
There are 45 possibilities of 2 in 10, the project will have 90 days period to be concluded.

Things to follow;
- Reg. season and postseason play, both are included in evaluations.
- A simple 12/11/.../2/1 point system will be used for the project.
Evaluations will be based on the seasons, not the players direclty as an outcome of a single vote.
- Explanations are needed, even in short forms. (Though for a project like this, I'd appreciate long posts personally. Saying this as a voter, not the commissioner.)
- The time frame for each franchise is 2 days (from/to 11:00 EST).

Results on Google Sheets

The comparison order we'll be following;



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We're restarting the project with a pretty tough one imo. 02 and 03 Duncan and 84 and 86 Bird look like a pretty clear top 4 to me in some order. After that I'll have to take a closer look but looking at previous results I expect Duncan to take the advantage there.

1. 2003 Tim Duncan - Pretty clear best season here imo, the carryjob Duncan had to do this season on both ends of the floor is one of the most impressive ever.
2. 2002 Tim Duncan - Moved him up because there really isn't much seperating it from 02 besides the deeper run/title.
3. 1986 Larry Bird - The most complete season for Bird but even then could've been slightly better in the post-season.
4. 1984 Larry Bird - Probably Bird's best play-off run but slightly below 86 as a season as a whole.
5. 2007 Tim Duncan - Duncan's offense took a bit of a hit compared to his early 00s peak but other than that it's still a very complete and high level season, kind of a best of the rest here.
6. 1987 Larry Bird - The next couple seasons on the list are pretty similar in my eyes. I like 87 the most though as Bird's offense might just be at his best here, while still having at least some defense going on.
7. 1985 Larry Bird - If not for the self inflicted injury this would rank a couple spots higher but as it stands I look at it as a similar but slightly less convincing in the post-season version of 87.
8. 2001 Tim Duncan - I'm not as high on this season because he had a so-so play-offs and he wasn't as dominant in the regular season as 85 Bird. Still a strong season though.
9. 1988 Larry Bird - Can't really justify putting this over 01 Duncan when the defense was pretty much all gone at this point. The elite offense carries him to at least here though.
10. 1999 Tim Duncan - Similar to 01 statistically and had a deeper post-season run to boot. Duncan wasn't as polished yet though and had to share the spotlight with Robinson so it's a bit less convincing overall.
11. 2005 Tim Duncan - The missed games hurt his regular season a bit but his level of play was still elite. Solid but maybe a bit underwhelming in the play-offs though.
12. 2004 Tim Duncan - Similar to 05 with a high level regular season hurt by some missed games and a solid but unspectacular post-season. The deeper run for 05 makes the difference though.

HM: 1983 Larry Bird - I had him over 04 Duncan at first but I'd probably give Duncan the slightest of edges in both the regular season and play-offs here.

EDIT: I've moved 02 Duncan up 2 places, put 99 Duncan 2 places lower and replaced 83 Bird with 04 Duncan. I'll add some reasoning before the deadline tomorrow.

EDIT 2: Alright this is the final version now. Cheers.

Duncan's best seasons:

2003
2002
2007
2001
2005
2004
2006
1999

Bird's top seasons:

1986
1984
1987
1985
1988
1981
1982

My list:

1. 2003 Tim Duncan - GOAT-level two-way performance from Duncan.
2. 2002 Tim Duncan - really close to the first one, just different team structure limited his ceilling a bit.

3. 1986 Larry Bird - by far the most complete season from Bird. He really started to develop his outside game at this point, while still being a solid defensive contributor. To me, 1986 vs 2007 is a very close debate, but I decided to go with Bird, though it's far from clear to me.
4. 2007 Tim Duncan - Duncan was still very capable offensive star in that season and his defense was just all-time great. 1984 Bird is reasonably close, but I don't think he reached the same level as Duncan did in 2007.
5. 1984 Larry Bird - arguably his finest postseason run and one of his better defensive seasons as well. Bird truly reached another level as a scorer that year and that puts him ahead of any other available Duncan season.
6. 2001 Tim Duncan - I'd put him ahead of 1984 Bird had he already developed his passing game in that season, but I think he wasn't quite there yet. Spectacular season all-around and although the WCF was very disappointing, I don't think we can blame Duncan that much for this loss.
7. 1987 Larry Bird - significant decline on defensive end, but as good as ever offensively.

8. 2005 Tim Duncan - very close vs 1985, both players struggled with injuries in the playoffs. The key is that Duncan kept being very valuable on defense, while Bird lost some value on both ends of the floor.
9. 1985 Larry Bird - pretty much on his peak level for RS, but postseason performance was subpar for his standards, due to the injury.
10. 2004 Tim Duncan - I would have him considerably higher, but he missed many games in the RS.
11. 1988 Larry Bird - basically peak offense from him in the RS, but defense kept declining. This fact, along with his horrible performance against the Pistons put him 11th on that list.
12. 2006 Tim Duncan - I don't see pre-1984 Bird approaching prime Duncan's impact here, even if he had a down scoring year. I also don't see young Bird ever having comparable playoff series to the one Duncan had vs Mavs.

HM: 1999 Duncan

Dutchball97 wrote:We're restarting the project with a pretty tough one imo. 02 and 03 Duncan and 84 and 86 Bird look like a pretty clear top 4 to me in some order. After that I'll have to take a closer look but looking at previous results I expect Duncan to take the advantage there.

My "off the top of my head" tentative list:
1. 2003 Tim Duncan
2. 1986 Larry Bird
3. 1984 Larry Bird
4. 2002 Tim Duncan
5. 2007 Tim Duncan
6. 1987 Larry Bird
7. 2001 Tim Duncan
8. 1999 Tim Duncan
9. 1985 Larry Bird
10. 1988 Larry Bird
11. 2005 Tim Duncan
12. 1983 Larry Bird

Could you explain your choice of 1983 over 2004?

70sFan wrote:

Dutchball97 wrote:We're restarting the project with a pretty tough one imo. 02 and 03 Duncan and 84 and 86 Bird look like a pretty clear top 4 to me in some order. After that I'll have to take a closer look but looking at previous results I expect Duncan to take the advantage there.

My "off the top of my head" tentative list:
1. 2003 Tim Duncan
2. 1986 Larry Bird
3. 1984 Larry Bird
4. 2002 Tim Duncan
5. 2007 Tim Duncan
6. 1987 Larry Bird
7. 2001 Tim Duncan
8. 1999 Tim Duncan
9. 1985 Larry Bird
10. 1988 Larry Bird
11. 2005 Tim Duncan
12. 1983 Larry Bird

Could you explain your choice of 1983 over 2004?

It's still a work in progress. Duncan was probably slightly better in the regular season but Bird had a more valuable regular season due to Duncan's games missed imo. In the play-offs Duncan also looks a bit better but I'm not sure yet if it's enough to put him ahead of 83 Bird, I'll have to look into the individual play-off series for that.

I also might move 02 Duncan ahead of 84 and/or 86 Bird but I put it below those seasons due to it only being a second round exit compared to two title runs. I'm aware Duncan was just as good, if not better, in 02 as he was in 03 but I'll still have to weigh whether Bird's deeper runs are impressive enough to stay ahead.

Lastly the placing of Duncan's 99 season is probably the most volatile placement on my list. It's a comparable season to 01 statistically and while the season was shortened but we shouldn't penalize Duncan for that when he didn't miss a game in either the regular season or the play-offs. On the other hand he was still a co-best player with Robinson and their post-season opposition wasn't that strong either.

Dutchball97 wrote:

70sFan wrote:

Dutchball97 wrote:We're restarting the project with a pretty tough one imo. 02 and 03 Duncan and 84 and 86 Bird look like a pretty clear top 4 to me in some order. After that I'll have to take a closer look but looking at previous results I expect Duncan to take the advantage there.

My "off the top of my head" tentative list:
1. 2003 Tim Duncan
2. 1986 Larry Bird
3. 1984 Larry Bird
4. 2002 Tim Duncan
5. 2007 Tim Duncan
6. 1987 Larry Bird
7. 2001 Tim Duncan
8. 1999 Tim Duncan
9. 1985 Larry Bird
10. 1988 Larry Bird
11. 2005 Tim Duncan
12. 1983 Larry Bird

Could you explain your choice of 1983 over 2004?

It's still a work in progress. Duncan was probably slightly better in the regular season but Bird had a more valuable regular season due to Duncan's games missed imo. In the play-offs Duncan also looks a bit better but I'm not sure yet if it's enough to put him ahead of 83 Bird, I'll have to look into the individual play-off series for that.

I understand the concerns with missed games, although I think per game Duncan was significantly better - he was basically his 2003 self in the RS and the only tangible difference is that he had a down year on the FT line. I don't know if people realize it, but had Duncan shot FTs like he did in 2003, he would have finished with better scoring season than in 2003 (or even 2002). On top of that, his defensive impact was just ridiculous.

Now, I do have him quite low because he struggled in the playoffs against the Lakers. He didn't have much help, but I still think he could have done significantly better than that (like he did in 2002). The thing is that Bird was even worse in the playoffs (he also had more help) and I don't believe that 10 additional RS games is enough to overcome that.

Of course, I'm also open to the discussion.

I also might move 02 Duncan ahead of 84 and/or 86 Bird but I put it below those seasons due to it only being a second round exit compared to two title runs. I'm aware Duncan was just as good, if not better, in 02 as he was in 03 but I'll still have to weigh whether Bird's deeper runs are impressive enough to stay ahead.

I understand that, I don't agree with this conclusion (I don't see Bird ever doing more with 2002 Spurs level of cast than Duncan did), but I know that it's always problematic to compare seasons with different number of postseason games.

Lastly the placing of Duncan's 99 season is probably the most volatile placement on my list. It's a comparable season to 01 statistically and while the season was shortened but we shouldn't penalize Duncan for that when he didn't miss a game in either the regular season or the play-offs. On the other hand he was still a co-best player with Robinson and their post-season opposition wasn't that strong either.

I am a bit lower on 1999 vs some mid-2000s seasons, because after watching closely many Duncan games, I found out that his passing game wasn't developed yet and his defense (already great) didn't reach its peak either. He was a better scorer when he was younger than in the mid-2000s though, so it depends on what you value.

Bit of a weird project to me but hey why not:

1. 2003 Duncan
2. 2002 Duncan (basically an identical year but had less support and faced a better version of the Lakers)
3. 1986 Bird
4. 1984 Bird
5. 2007 Duncan
6. 1987 Bird
7. 2001 Duncan
8. 2005 Duncan
9. 1985 Bird
10. 2004 Duncan
11. 1988 Bird
12. 1999 Duncan

Still going to think the exact order through but I'm generally higher on Duncan than Bird.

Top 5 Bird Seasons:

1986
1987
1984

1985
1988

Top 8 Duncan Seasons:

2003
2002

2001
2007
2005
1999
2004
2006

Here are my top 12 seasons.

1. 2003 Duncan
2. 2002 Duncan
3. 1986 Bird
4. 1987 Bird
5. 1984 Bird
6. 2001 Duncan
7. 2007 Duncan
8. 2005 Duncan
9. 1985 Bird
10. 1988 Bird
11. 1999 Duncan
12. 2004 Duncan

I feel like peak years from Bird where he put together great regular seasons and postseasons beat out non-peak years from Duncan. However I don't see any Bird years apart from 1984-1988 getting on this list. Duncan had more quality years than the 5 Bird had.

Deadline to submit votes is tomorrow morning 11 AM ET just like Odinn used to do it.

Let's get some more votes in!

Results on Google Sheets.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1RD6wOE7nOP9E4EHTNonTYUH-MrAUqRBM/edit?usp=sharing&ouid=114806086860367043161&rtpof=true&sd=true

Points within top 12 seasons voted;
Tim Duncan 45 - 33 Larry Bird

Points totals in top 12 seasons voted;
Tim Duncan 179 - 131 Larry Bird

Winner: Tim Duncan

Djoker wrote:Results on Google Sheets.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1RD6wOE7nOP9E4EHTNonTYUH-MrAUqRBM/edit?usp=sharing&ouid=114806086860367043161&rtpof=true&sd=true

Points within top 12 seasons voted;
Tim Duncan 45 - 33 Larry Bird

Points totals in top 12 seasons voted;
Tim Duncan 179 - 131 Larry Bird

Winner: Tim Duncan

It probably won't change the results much but you've listed my preliminary list instead of my final one.

Dutchball97 wrote:

Djoker wrote:Results on Google Sheets.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1RD6wOE7nOP9E4EHTNonTYUH-MrAUqRBM/edit?usp=sharing&ouid=114806086860367043161&rtpof=true&sd=true

Points within top 12 seasons voted;
Tim Duncan 45 - 33 Larry Bird

Points totals in top 12 seasons voted;
Tim Duncan 179 - 131 Larry Bird

Winner: Tim Duncan

It probably won't change the results much but you've listed my preliminary list instead of my final one.

Post your final and I will make the edits.

Djoker wrote:

Dutchball97 wrote:

Djoker wrote:Results on Google Sheets.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1RD6wOE7nOP9E4EHTNonTYUH-MrAUqRBM/edit?usp=sharing&ouid=114806086860367043161&rtpof=true&sd=true

Points within top 12 seasons voted;
Tim Duncan 45 - 33 Larry Bird

Points totals in top 12 seasons voted;
Tim Duncan 179 - 131 Larry Bird

Winner: Tim Duncan

It probably won't change the results much but you've listed my preliminary list instead of my final one.

Post your final and I will make the edits.

I've editted my original comment.