RealGM

No order

Giannis
Jokic
Luka
Curry
Embiid
KD
Lebron
Jayson Tatum
Ja Morant
Jimmy Butler
Trae Young
Dame Lillard
Devon Booker
Donavan Mitchell
Siakam

I have a feeling there are about 5-7 borderline candidates.

Zion, PG-13, Shai Gilgeous-Alexander, Lauri Markkanen, James Harden, Dejounte Murray, DeMar DeRozan

Paul George over Trae Young, all day everyday

Markkanen over AD?

Gobert?

Colbinii wrote:Gobert?

I don't think keeping Minny's defense the same as last year's while being meh offensively is enough to get him in, not while we have such an small sample size that Markkanen looks like the new Giannis, at least.

Jaivl wrote:

Colbinii wrote:Gobert?

I don't think keeping Minny's defense the same as last year's while being meh offensively is enough to get him in, not while we have such an small sample size that Markkanen looks like the new Giannis, at least.

My impression from a couple of snippets I''d heard/read was the defense was holding up with him on and that others were the issue there. Very early but on-off splits seem to suggest hideous O with him on has been the problem https://www.cleaningtheglass.com/stats/player/1310/onoff#tab-team_efficiency.
That offensive difference number won't hold there even if he's awful (which he typically hasn't been historically) and an awful fit (-17.7, 2nd percentile).
Obviously this stuff is super noisy off such small samples but does align with what I'd heard regarding his D not being the issue.

None of which is to comment on where he ranks overall "now" (which will depend heavily on to what extent people are weighting priors anyhow).

Nothing about LeBrons play this season justifies him in the top 15 imo. I’m honestly surprised by his kinda good 3.5 OBPM

SGA for example has clearly been better so far

Colbinii wrote:Gobert?

Never been much of a fan of his. His teams always seem to underperform. A lot of times due to his offense.

And thinks he's overrated on REALGM boards.

mdonnelly1989 wrote:

Colbinii wrote:Gobert?

Never been much of a fan of his. His teams always seem to underperform. A lot of times due to his offense.

And thinks he's overrated on REALGM boards.

Uh what? Gobert is definitely not overrated here lol. And his teams have had elite defenses (anchored by him) and then they pivoted to offensive lineups and were elite knowing he could keep the defense afloat. And his offensive impact has always been high. I realize screening, rim running and offensive rebounding aren't sexy, but they all really help offenses and he's among the best in the league at all 3 categories.

The truth is people just don't like him. Whether it was the COVID stuff, the typical anti-French nonsense, they don't understand how to evaluate defense so they just dismiss it rather than work at it whatever.

I don't know if he's a top 15 player through a dozen games or not, but he's been a top 15 player in the league for years now. Without any question whatsoever.

Jaivl wrote:

Colbinii wrote:Gobert?

I don't think keeping Minny's defense the same as last year's while being meh offensively is enough to get him in, not while we have such an small sample size that Markkanen looks like the new Giannis, at least.

I can see him not top 15 for games exclusively played this season, but is the list asking for that?

It would seem not with LeBron, Zion, etc up for consideration.

Embiid my more controversial take there probably.

mdonnelly1989 wrote:

Colbinii wrote:Gobert?

Never been much of a fan of his. His teams always seem to underperform. A lot of times due to his offense.

And thinks he's overrated on REALGM boards.

1) How have Gobert's teams underperformed? Did you expect them to make the Finals? If not, how exactly did they underperform? Can you point directly at Gobert for the team underperforming?

Do you think Lillards teams have underperformed because of his defense?

What about LeBron and AD's teams in 2021 and 2022?

The Raptors lost in round 1 last year against Philadelphia with Siakam posting 22/7/6 but 23% from 3.

Trae Young averaged 15/6/5 last post-season on 46 TS%.

Gobert has never been as bad as Trae Young last post-season.

Be objective brah.

eminence wrote:

Jaivl wrote:

Colbinii wrote:Gobert?

I don't think keeping Minny's defense the same as last year's while being meh offensively is enough to get him in, not while we have such an small sample size that Markkanen looks like the new Giannis, at least.

I can see him not top 15 for games exclusively played this season, but is the list asking for that?

It would seem not with LeBron, Zion, etc up for consideration.

Embiid my more controversial take there probably.

But if it's a list based on multi-year samples then it's impossible for guys like Trae and Siakam to be there over Harden.

mdonnelly1989 wrote:No order

Giannis
Jokic
Luka
Curry
Embiid
KD
Lebron
Jayson Tatum
Ja Morant
Jimmy Butler
Trae Young
Dame Lillard
Devon Booker
Donavan Mitchell
Siakam

I have a feeling there are about 5-7 borderline candidates.

Zion, PG-13, Shai Gilgeous-Alexander, Lauri Markkanen, James Harden, Dejounte Murray, DeMar DeRozan

Probably ready to put SGA up and LeBron down
Lauri or PG-13 will probably pass AD for me this year, need longer to put Lauri up there.

Who's in tier 1 so far?

Steph, Luka, Giannis? is Jokic in there?

parsnips33 wrote:Who's in tier 1 so far?

Steph, Luka, Giannis? is Jokic in there?

Are we asking if the guy who is....

*1st in the league in WS/48
**4th in both PER and BPM
***while posting a [caveat: small sample (though consistent with prior years)] ridiculous +28.3 on/off (best in league??)
****for a 7th-rated offense on team that is 8-3 (and the contextual back-drop of noting he was MVP the last two years in row)........

.....is in tier 1 so far?

Yes, I think so.

trex_8063 wrote:

parsnips33 wrote:Who's in tier 1 so far?

Steph, Luka, Giannis? is Jokic in there?

Are we asking if the guy who is....

*1st in the league in WS/48
**4th in both PER and BPM
***while posting a [caveat: small sample (though consistent with prior years)] ridiculous +28.3 on/off (best in league??)
****for a 7th-rated offense on team that is 8-3 (and the contextual back-drop of noting he was MVP the last two years in row)........

.....is in tier 1 so far?

Yes, I think so.

I threw a perfect alley-oop to you

It's gotta be just those 4 right? If we're just talking season-to-date could you make an argument for Mitchell?

take out
T.Young(
Booker

Put
SGA
T. Haliburton

parsnips33 wrote:

trex_8063 wrote:

parsnips33 wrote:Who's in tier 1 so far?

Steph, Luka, Giannis? is Jokic in there?

Are we asking if the guy who is....

*1st in the league in WS/48
**4th in both PER and BPM
***while posting a [caveat: small sample (though consistent with prior years)] ridiculous +28.3 on/off (best in league??)
****for a 7th-rated offense on team that is 8-3 (and the contextual back-drop of noting he was MVP the last two years in row)........

.....is in tier 1 so far?

Yes, I think so.

I threw a perfect alley-oop to you

It's gotta be just those 4 right? If we're just talking season-to-date could you make an argument for Mitchell?

Curry, Luka, Giannis and Jokic are the top 4 in PER, WS/48 and BPM. They're all in the top 6 of RAPTOR as well alongside 6MOY Love and Mitchell.

I do think if you want to expand that group to 5 it has to be Mitchell. 9th in PER and right behind the top 4 in both BPM and WS/48, while even ahead of Giannis in RAPTOR.

Guys like Tatum, KD, SGA, Butler and Ja aren't far off in the boxscore metrics but fall a bit behind in RAPTOR with them all being around a +5, while Giannis as the lowest of the top group is at a +8.5. I'm pretty sure both LEBRON and EPM shouldn't take too much longer to come out for this season, which should give us a better feeling for the defensive performance of these players. RAPTOR takes defense somewhat into account but it's a bit wonky, especially at this low sample size. I wouldn't be surprised to see someone like Tatum get rated higher in more balanced stats like EPM and LEBRON but we'll get there when we get there.

If I had to pick 15 for this season exclusively (not really weighing games played) I'd go with the following, not in a particular order:

Steph
Giannis
Jokic
Luka
Shai
Mitchell
Ja
Bane
Booker
D. Murray
Tatum
Siakam
KD
Dame
Jrue

HMs to Harden and George

I'm very amused there are still Bron supporters around who defend his position in the top 30. I dont think he contributed anything this season that would even put him in the top 50, let alone top 15.

parsnips33 wrote:Who's in tier 1 so far?

Steph, Luka, Giannis? is Jokic in there?

I think its Steph, KD, Giannis, Jokic. Luka is a genius on one end but still refuses to play anything that i would consider good defense. Often times he just remains in the frontcourt to argue with refs and doesnt give a damn about helping his team. He is so smart and big that he COULD make a huge difference.