RealGM

Hello.

Link to the project idea thread.

The project will contain 1v1 comparisons between the top 10 ever in the latest 3 top 100 project on RealGM which are LeBron James, Michael Jordan, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Bill Russell, Tim Duncan, Wilt Chamberlain, Magic Johnson, Shaquille O'Neal, Hakeem Olajuwon and Larry Bird.
There are 45 possibilities of 2 in 10, the project will have 90 days period to be concluded.

Things to follow;
- Reg. season and postseason play, both are included in evaluations.
- A simple 12/11/.../2/1 point system will be used for the project.
Evaluations will be based on the seasons, not the players direclty as an outcome of a single vote.
- Explanations are needed, even in short forms. (Though for a project like this, I'd appreciate long posts personally. Saying this as a voter, not the commissioner.)
- The time frame for each franchise is 2 days (from/to 11:00 EST).

Results on Google Sheets

The comparison order we'll be following;



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Djoker wrote:Hello.

Link to the project idea thread.

The project will contain 1v1 comparisons between the top 10 ever in the latest 3 top 100 project on RealGM which are LeBron James, Michael Jordan, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Bill Russell, Tim Duncan, Wilt Chamberlain, Magic Johnson, Shaquille O'Neal, Hakeem Olajuwon and Larry Bird.
There are 45 possibilities of 2 in 10, the project will have 90 days period to be concluded.

Things to follow;
- Reg. season and postseason play, both are included in evaluations.
- A simple 12/11/.../2/1 point system will be used for the project.
Evaluations will be based on the seasons, not the players direclty as an outcome of a single vote.
- Explanations are needed, even in short forms. (Though for a project like this, I'd appreciate long posts personally. Saying this as a voter, not the commissioner.)
- The time frame for each franchise is 2 days (from/to 11:00 EST).

Results on Google Sheets

The comparison order we'll be following;

Spoiler:

1. Bill Russell vs. Magic Johnson
2. Hakeem Olajuwon vs. Larry Bird
3. Michael Jordan vs. Wilt Chamberlain
4. LeBron James vs. Tim Duncan
5. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar vs. Shaquille O'Neal

6. LeBron James vs. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
7. Michael Jordan vs. Hakeem Olajuwon
8. Shaquille O'Neal vs. Larry Bird
9. Tim Duncan vs. Magic Johnson
10. Bill Russell vs. Wilt Chamberlain

11. Michael Jordan vs. Larry Bird
12. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar vs. Hakeem Olajuwon
13. LeBron James vs. Bill Russell
14. Tim Duncan vs. Wilt Chamberlain
15. Magic Johnson vs. Shaquille O'Neal

16. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar vs. Bill Russell
17. Shaquille O'Neal vs. Hakeem Olajuwon
18. Magic Johnson vs. Larry Bird
19. LeBron James vs. Wilt Chamberlain
20. Michael Jordan vs. Tim Duncan

21. LeBron James vs. Michael Jordan
22. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar vs. Wilt Chamberlain
23. Tim Duncan vs. Larry Bird
24. Bill Russell vs. Shaquille O'Neal
25. Magic Johnson vs. Hakeem Olajuwon

26. LeBron James vs. Larry Bird
27. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar vs. Magic Johnson
28. Michael Jordan vs. Shaquille O'Neal
29. Bill Russell vs. Tim Duncan
30. Wilt Chamberlain vs. Hakeem Olajuwon

31. Wilt Chamberlain vs. Shaquille O'Neal
32. LeBron James vs. Hakeem Olajuwon
33. Bill Russell vs. Larry Bird
34. Michael Jordan vs. Magic Johnson
35. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar vs. Tim Duncan

36. Wilt Chamberlain vs. Larry Bird
37. Tim Duncan vs. Shaquille O'Neal
38. Bill Russell vs. Hakeem Olajuwon
39. LeBron James vs. Magic Johnson
40. Michael Jordan vs. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

41. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar vs. Larry Bird
42. LeBron James vs. Shaquille O'Neal
43. Wilt Chamberlain vs. Magic Johnson
44. Tim Duncan vs. Hakeem Olajuwon
45. Michael Jordan vs. Bill Russell

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Spoiler:

Ainosterhaspie wrote:.

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70sFan wrote:.

Please remove me from the list. Thanks.

Me as well, I can only take so much of this and I tend to burn myself out with the top 100 list every 3 years or so.

I guess this project is dead!

Djoker wrote:I guess this project is dead!

I will vote today, but I think we should give people more time to come back and decide to vote. Two days is not enough when the project comes back from two years of absence.

Might be worth using this more to confirm interest in participating. Personally, I do not find it an especially compelling endeavour, and any participation from me would be more dependent on the specific matchup.

Russell in particular is one I hate doing. Not a lot of variation with him.

This is one of the toughest pairs of players to settle on the order for me. I've got peak Shaq over peak Russell but I am somewhat low on non-peak Shaq so I think Russell overall may have a better prime or at least more seasons up there.

Top 7 Russell Seasons:

1962
1965
1963

1964
1960
1961
1966

Top 7 Shaq Seasons:

2000
2001

1998
2002
1995
1999
1996

Combined Top 12 Seasons:

1. 2000 Shaq
2. 2001 Shaq
3. 1962 Russell
4. 1965 Russell
5. 1963 Russell
6. 1998 Shaq
7. 2002 Shaq
8. 1964 Russell
9. 1960 Russell
10. 1961 Russell
11. 1966 Russell
12. 1995 Shaq

HM: 1999 Shaq, 1996 Shaq, 1968 Russell, 1959 Russell

Russell best seasons:

1962
1965
1963
1964
1960
1966
1961
1959

Top Shaq seasons:

2000
2001
2002
1998
1999
2003
1995
1994

My list:

1. 2000 Shaq - I'm not super comfortable with that choice, because I see a lot of concerns with Shaq's defense even in his best season. With that being said, I think I can give him the benefit of doubt, as he was a monster offensive player who still had some value on defense. I can see Russell being ranked ahead, but I'd need to see more of his peak games to be convinced.
2. 1962 Russell - Russell has a significant advanatge in terms of RS and although Shaq arguably was more dominant in the playoffs, Russell himself proved himself to be a dominant two-way force in that postseason run.
3. 1965 Russell - slightly different offensive role, but very comparable to his peak self. I think this might be his 2nd best offensive season and 2nd best defensive season of all-time.

4. 2001 Shaq - I don't like his inconsistency in the RS, but he was basically at his peak form by the time we reached playoffs. Some may argue that he reached even higher heights than in 2000.
5. 1963 Russell - another one of Russell's stronger offensive seasons, backed up with his typically amazing defense. He had a very strong postseason run again and I just can't pick any other version of Shaq over basically a peak Russell.
6. 1964 Russell - the best defensive season of all-time. Absolutely amazing carry-job by Russell, leading one of his best teams to the title without any notable offensive help outside of Sam Jones. I don't think that 2002 Shaq had more impact on his team or was more impressive individually, despite massive scoring gap.

7. 2002 Shaq - missed games in the RS and horrible series against the Spurs hurt his case, but you can't deny the fact that he was still a top tier offensive player. His defense got worse and worse, but when he was 100% healthy, I think he was at his best in terms of scoring repertoire in the post during that season. He added quite a few moves to his arsenal, or at least was more willing to mix them.
8. 1960 Russell - a bit younger version of Russell who wasn't at his defensive apex yet, but he was a solid offensively with Cousy carrying more playmaking duties. I have seen some criticism from Odinn in the past about his decision making in that season, which is why I don't have him in the 2nd tier.
9. 1966 Russell - Bill took a step down on both ends of the floor during that season, but his postseason run was still quite impressive and he did an amazing job on Wilt overall. He also looked very good in the finals in the limited footage I have seen.
10. 1998 Shaq - monster player per-possession, but he missed so many games I just can't put him ahead of someone like 1966 Russell. Without missed games, I think I'd put him in the second tier, but his defensive struggles in the playoffs keep him away from the tier 1.

11. 1961 Russell - a weaker season than 1960 from the information I could gather, he didn't have a particularily strong postseason run either for his standards (and relatively weak competition faced).
12. 1999 Shaq - excellent offensive season, but one of the worst defensive ones of his prime. Still, peak Shaq on offense just has to be included here.

HM: 2003 Shaq, 1995 Shaq, 1959 Russell

It shows why Russell is the GOAT candidate, he has such a clear edge over Shaq who is top 8 player ever himself.

1. 2000 Shaquille O'Neal - I've got this as a top 3 peak of all-time. One of the most dominant regular seasons followed by a huge play-off run, especially the finals where he almost singlehandedly secured the ring. Offensively there aren't many seasons that even have arguments ahead of 00 Shaq and defensively he's much better than he usually was as well.
2. 1964 Bill Russell - Russell's best defensive season and by that the best defensive season ever. Hondo was just getting started, while the likes of Cousy and Sharman retired but this was nontheless the most dominant season in the Boston dynasty. Beating the other 2 best teams in the league 4-1 in the play-offs with Russell as the undisputed leader. If Russell wasn't so ineffective on offense this season I could even entertain him in the top spot.
3. 1965 Bill Russell - Almost as good defensively as 64 and much better on offense but struggled more in the play-offs against on paper weaker competition than the year before. Overall I'm slightly more convinced by 64 but 65 is a great choice for his peak too.
4. 1962 Bill Russell - Arguably his offensive peak, while not being far off his defensive best either. The main thing placing this season below 64 and 65 is not having notably more impact with a stronger supporting cast around him, the other 2 seasons did more with less imo.
5. 2001 Shaquille O'Neal - I'm not as high on his post-season as others because the only round where Shaq was the clear best player was the finals imo. Kobe was clearly better against the Spurs and the first 2 rounds were a toss-up. The 2001 Lakers are an all-time team but I'd prefer 2000 Shaq in both the regular season and play-offs.
6. 1963 Bill Russell - The ugly stepchild of Bill Russell's 62-65 peak/prime purely because it doesn't really stand out from the rest in terms of either offense, defense or team success relative to strength of teammates and opposition. Still an incredible season though.
7. 2002 Shaquille O'Neal - Missed a couple games in the regular season, which hurt his overall value but in terms of quality it wasn't worse than his 2001 regular season. Like 70sfan said the Spurs series wasn't great but other than that I don't see this as a big step down from 01 either.
8. 1960 Bill Russell - It's between this and 62 for Russell's best offensive season, while 62 is more complete 60 has the best shooting. Defensively it's not quite peak level but still very strong and only really behind 61-66.
9. 1999 Shaquille O'Neal - Very strong regular season with a somewhat disappointing but not bad post-season.
10. 2003 Shaquille O'Neal - At this point Shaq's defensive effort is becoming significantly worse but his overall impact is still strong. I'd consider this season ahead of 99 if not for the missed games in the regular season.
11. 1961 Bill Russell - He's hurt by having a noticeable offensive drop-off, while not quite being at his defensive peak either. It should be noted Russell made an individual jump in defensive impact though as well as doing better as a team on that end compared to 1960. Maybe not the strongest competition in the play-offs but beat the 2nd and 3rd SRS teams comfortably nontheless just like in 64.
12. 1966 Bill Russell - Very rough offensively and took a step back on defense too but his overall impact was still good and a strong post-season gets him on the list ahead of 95 or 98 Shaq.

^^

I was just wondering. What is both of your rationale for having 2001 Shaq so far below 2000 Shaq? To me the two are basically the same in the playoffs. Maybe a few missed regular season games in 2001 hurt Shaq... I personally think he should have been MVP in 2001 and got robbed. Iverson was a feel good story but was never near his impact.

Djoker wrote:^^

I was just wondering. What is both of your rationale for having 2001 Shaq so far below 2000 Shaq? To me the two are basically the same in the playoffs. Maybe a few missed regular season games in 2001 hurt Shaq... I personally think he should have been MVP in 2001 and got robbed. Iverson was a feel good story but was never near his impact.

Kobe did a lot more work in 01, while Shaq had to carry a much bigger load in 2000. I do think Shaq probably should've been MVP but it could've been Duncan as well, while Shaq was undoubtedly MVP in 2000. I don't think 2001 Shaq was that worse of a player than 2000 Shaq but the season was less impressive by pretty much every metric. In general though there is only such a big gap between the 2 seasons because I have an even harder time seperating Russell's best seasons.

Djoker wrote:^^

I was just wondering. What is both of your rationale for having 2001 Shaq so far below 2000 Shaq? To me the two are basically the same in the playoffs. Maybe a few missed regular season games in 2001 hurt Shaq... I personally think he should have been MVP in 2001 and got robbed. Iverson was a feel good story but was never near his impact.

To me, it was mostly his defensive effort. He still had a massive offensive impact during the RS, but he was basically a no factor on defense. That caused Lakers to be probably the worst title team ever on defense during the RS.

To his credit, he started playing defense in the playoffs and Lakers were ATG defensively, but it's hard to ignore full RS sample.

Fair enough. I do agree that Shaq cruised a lot in the 2001 regular season especially on D. And yea Kobe was fantastic in the 2001 playoffs, honestly possibly better than Shaq before the finals. However Kobe's stellar play explains why the Lakers just crushed everyone in those playoffs. In 2000 with just Shaq carrying the load they struggled relatively speaking. But I wouldn't penalize Shaq for Kobe performing well. If that makes sense...