RealGM

I want to keep this very general at first, but if there's interest in the topic, we can make a li'l project of it or take whatever direction will stimulate conversation, as this is a central interest of mine.

Two sets of prompts to get us rolling, but contribute however you feel:

1. Within the NBA(/ABA/BAA/NBL) context, what defines sportsmanship for you? What are the characteristics of the great sportsmen which elicit your admiration? Dedication to the craft/winning? Unselfishness? Loyalty? Professionalism? Perseverance? Flair for the art of the game, the creative, or dramatic? Being groundbreaking or influential? How does off-court conduct weigh? Is sportsmanship linked with high quality of play, such that the best players also have the greatest opportunity to lay claim to being the game's best sportsmen?

2. Which players come to mind when you think of the NBA's (etc.) greatest sportsmen? Why? Whose narratives or careers stand out the most? How have these players influenced your view of basketball, or sports, or life? What NBA stories exemplify sportsmanship, whatever it is the term means for you?

I'm not expecting exhaustive lists or deep research to start with, just an informal discussion on these concepts and their exemplars.

As a reference point, here's a link to all NBA award winners, including awards for citizenship, sportsmanship, social justice, and teammate of the year:
https://www.nba.com/news/history-all-time-awards

Dr. J really comes to mind as he has been called basketball's greatest ambassador.

Jack Twyman Comes to mind with the way he cared for stokes.

prolific passer wrote:Dr. J really comes to mind as he has been called basketball's greatest ambassador.

His NBA.com "Legends Profile" states: "A gracious, dignified and disciplined man, Erving was an ideal ambassador for the game. He was the epitome of class, and no other player was more respected."

Indeed, that sounds like the profile of a great sportsman.

It may not be wise for me to cross over into general player evaluations so soon in this thread, but as I am interested in the relationship between views of sportsmanship and players' overall esteem, I'll say anyway that it is curious to me that his reputation as a player seems to have declined slightly in recent years (10 -> 11 -> 14 -> 16 -> 18 in the RealGM Top 100), as some other players who were already retired in 2008 (first list) have surpassed him. If I have time I will look over the threads where he was under serious consideration and see what's changed. I wonder whether his "ambassadorship" got any more attention in the early years.

coastalmarker99 wrote:Jack Twyman Comes to mind with the way he cared for stokes.

What a story. I'd heard it years ago but honestly hadn't thought about it in a long time. They named the "teammate of the year" award after these two! Twyman also seems to have had a reputation as a great on-court teammate, too.

This is the type of story that demands to be remembered because even a HOFer like Twyman can be overlooked in an all-time sense. Great player and absolutely a great sportsman.

I think winning really goes a long way in holding a player in that high esteem, and it gives validity in the players transcendans in whatever area they excel in.

All of us have some subjective component that catches our attention and awe on a past or present player from athleticism, shooting ability, iq, personality, determination etc..

But I think winning gives it that validity. Because really sports is some kind of metaphor on how to compete and become the top on whatever endeavour your are in

mysticOscar wrote:Because really sports is some kind of metaphor on how to compete and become the top on whatever endeavour your are in

Good point. Sport seems to be a recurring and durable feature of cultures, and some argue this is because of the meaningful narratives it produces. We trivialize sport when we call it "just a game." Among the reasons we participate in sports is to reveal our own character and ability. And as spectators, we are captivated by stories of overcoming adversity, working together, striving for excellence, and achieving greatness in its many forms. Stories about winners are some of the most compelling, which is why speaking of "winning bias" may too trivialize something meaningful.

In terms of players I personally interacted with as a long time Bullets/Wizards fan, Phil Chenier was super classy, Wes Unseld Sr. off the court was a consummate gentleman but had a tendency to whine too much about calls on the court (and, of course, was the master of the brutal blind pick). Juwan Howard stayed classy and professional despite many years of his own fans turning on him for getting a long term contract that made him one of the league highest paid players when his talent couldn't keep up. Pervis Ellison never was rude or short when I knew him despite the year in year out disappointment of his injuries. Brad Beal I have not met but he has always been loyal and classy to a franchise that has not done a good job in his tenure in a league where that kind of behavior is increasingly rare.

Juwan Howard stayed classy and professional in Portland too. Unexpectedly, when Oden and Przybilla both had devastating knee injuries in December 2009, he found himself playing starting minutes at age 36 and performed admirably.

Your account of Unseld reminds me of my conflicting feelings on Duncan. He is rightly held up as a professional and leader, one of the handful of all-time great franchise players. I'd put him up there with anybody... except for his constantly working the refs, which always seemed deliberate and tactical from the Spurs as a whole but was especially pronounced from Duncan. Stars can get away with that, but should they exploit it? I'd argue not.

Out of curiosity, how did you as a fan have so many occasions to interact with the players?

I like to mention guys like Luol Deng and Mutombo as well for their charities and camps.
Deke gets a lot of love from the legends he played with and against in his career.

I volunteered with the youth outreach program that Chenier set up.

Professionalism and Unselfishness.

It's why Jerry West is the logo despite guys who've contributed more to popularity, did social charity or who won more.

Statlanta wrote:Professionalism and Unselfishness.

It's why Jerry West is the logo despite guys who've contributed more to popularity, did social charity or who won more.

It would just be too weird to change the logo. He was just perfect for it.

Statlanta wrote:Professionalism and Unselfishness.

It's why Jerry West is the logo despite guys who've contributed more to popularity, did social charity or who won more.

I think you should at least look up why the NBA logo is the way it is before making these statements.

Jerry West's character has nothing to do with him being used as the template for the logo. Jerry West isn't even literally the logo.

Bobby Jones is certainly in this conversation.

"If I was going to ask a youngster to model after someone, I would pick Bobby Jones." Said longtime 76ers teammate Julius Erving, "He's a player who's totally selfless, who runs like a deer, jumps like a gazelle, plays with his head and heart each night, and then walks away from the court as if nothing happened."

As for his almost polite approach to the game, Jones believed that anything less would have been downright unacceptable. "If I have to play defense by holding on, that's when I quit," Jones said early in his career. "If I have to use an elbow to get position, then I’m going to have to settle for another position. And if I foul, or if the official makes a mistake, there's no use screaming about it. It won’t change things or make me happier."

On one of the few occasions Jones did address a referee, it was to point out that the official had called a foul on the wrong player: it was Jones, not a teammate, who was the guilty party. The trusting ref changed his call and assigned the foul to Jones—his fifth of the game. Larry Brown, Jones's coach with the Denver Nuggets, remarked, "Watching Bobby Jones on the basketball court is like watching an honest man in a liars’ poker game."

As for vices such as drinking, smoking, and cursing, they were out of the question. When a computer-generated ranking sponsored by Seagram Distillers rated Jones the NBA's "most consistent and productive player" in 1976–77, Jones turned over the $10,000 prize to religious charities. At the award dinner (held without alcohol at Jones's request) he pronounced from the podium: "I’m definitely against whiskey, and I just felt God gave me this money not to keep, but to use." And while he never asked teammates or coaches to avoid expletives, they frequently found themselves crying out "Oh, shoot!" in his presence.

HeartBreakKid wrote:

Statlanta wrote:Professionalism and Unselfishness.

It's why Jerry West is the logo despite guys who've contributed more to popularity, did social charity or who won more.

I think you should at least look up why the NBA logo is the way it is before making these statements.

Jerry West's character has nothing to do with him being used as the template for the logo. Jerry West isn't even literally the logo.

Instead of posting this, why don't you just post what Paul Harvey used to call, "the rest of the story." As far as I know, the logo was designed based on a photo of West (though the NBA has never formally confirmed that). So, while the choice may have been aesthetic rather than character, not sure why West isn't "literally" the logo.

Tim Lehrbach wrote:

prolific passer wrote:Dr. J really comes to mind as he has been called basketball's greatest ambassador.

His NBA.com "Legends Profile" states: "A gracious, dignified and disciplined man, Erving was an ideal ambassador for the game. He was the epitome of class, and no other player was more respected."

Indeed, that sounds like the profile of a great sportsman.

It may not be wise for me to cross over into general player evaluations so soon in this thread, but as I am interested in the relationship between views of sportsmanship and players' overall esteem, I'll say anyway that it is curious to me that his reputation as a player seems to have declined slightly in recent years (10 -> 11 -> 14 -> 16 -> 18 in the RealGM Top 100), as some other players who were already retired in 2008 (first list) have surpassed him. If I have time I will look over the threads where he was under serious consideration and see what's changed. I wonder whether his "ambassadorship" got any more attention in the early years.

One thing that will have hurt him (aside from, as you imply, some new players surpassing him) is on-off data for the 76ers specificially that seems to indicate he wasn't necessarily driving their team greatness in the way once popularly imagined.

Slightly approximated, on the assumption of constant pace his on-off rank among 1000+minute 76ers
77: 1 of 7
78: 4 of 9 (but also 4th of the top 5 minute getters)
79: 6 of 9
80: 3 of 7
81: 8 of 9
82: 1 of 9
83: 4 of 8
84: 4 of 9
85: 7 of 8
86: 4 of 8
87: 8 of 8

It's not like the overall numbers make him look a bad player in absolute terms. Still with '82 as an exception, in general, there isn't a ... say ... Nash-like uplift period in NBA spell and indeed the impact inclined might well see justification in ranking Cheeks or Bobby Jones above him in 76ers impact and perhaps overall if they weren't afraid of the unconventionality of it.


In terms of the ambassador type struff Erving generally carried that off well and traditionally was held highly in that regard. That said, I was of the impression that there's stuff that came out later with women and his first wife that took some shine off that, and whilst some things are complex and we won't always know the full story, just from his own words ... I think it's fair to say some of the shine is off.

SkyHookFTW wrote:Bobby Jones is certainly in this conversation.

"If I was going to ask a youngster to model after someone, I would pick Bobby Jones." Said longtime 76ers teammate Julius Erving, "He's a player who's totally selfless, who runs like a deer, jumps like a gazelle, plays with his head and heart each night, and then walks away from the court as if nothing happened."

As for his almost polite approach to the game, Jones believed that anything less would have been downright unacceptable. "If I have to play defense by holding on, that's when I quit," Jones said early in his career. "If I have to use an elbow to get position, then I’m going to have to settle for another position. And if I foul, or if the official makes a mistake, there's no use screaming about it. It won’t change things or make me happier."

On one of the few occasions Jones did address a referee, it was to point out that the official had called a foul on the wrong player: it was Jones, not a teammate, who was the guilty party. The trusting ref changed his call and assigned the foul to Jones—his fifth of the game. Larry Brown, Jones's coach with the Denver Nuggets, remarked, "Watching Bobby Jones on the basketball court is like watching an honest man in a liars’ poker game."

As for vices such as drinking, smoking, and cursing, they were out of the question. When a computer-generated ranking sponsored by Seagram Distillers rated Jones the NBA's "most consistent and productive player" in 1976–77, Jones turned over the $10,000 prize to religious charities. At the award dinner (held without alcohol at Jones's request) he pronounced from the podium: "I’m definitely against whiskey, and I just felt God gave me this money not to keep, but to use." And while he never asked teammates or coaches to avoid expletives, they frequently found themselves crying out "Oh, shoot!" in his presence.

Bobby Jones was the first person that came to mind. To add a couple more points, Billy Cunningham once said "He (Jones) didn't care if he scored a point or 20 points - it was insignificant. He had one common goal that he brought to the team, and that was: How can I help you win?" And in what might be the best compliment one could get, former teammate Charles Barkley said "If everyone in the world was like Bobby Jones, the world wouldn't have any problems."

Tim Lehrbach wrote:I want to keep this very general at first, but if there's interest in the topic, we can make a li'l project of it or take whatever direction will stimulate conversation, as this is a central interest of mine.

Two sets of prompts to get us rolling, but contribute however you feel:

1. Within the NBA(/ABA/BAA/NBL) context, what defines sportsmanship for you? What are the characteristics of the great sportsmen which elicit your admiration? Dedication to the craft/winning? Unselfishness? Loyalty? Professionalism? Perseverance? Flair for the art of the game, the creative, or dramatic? Being groundbreaking or influential? How does off-court conduct weigh? Is sportsmanship linked with high quality of play, such that the best players also have the greatest opportunity to lay claim to being the game's best sportsmen?

2. Which players come to mind when you think of the NBA's (etc.) greatest sportsmen? Why? Whose narratives or careers stand out the most? How have these players influenced your view of basketball, or sports, or life? What NBA stories exemplify sportsmanship, whatever it is the term means for you?

I'm not expecting exhaustive lists or deep research to start with, just an informal discussion on these concepts and their exemplars.

1. It's a challenging topic because "sportsman" has been used to mean distinctly different things. It can just mean "athlete", it can just refer to virtuous behavior (aka "sportsmanship"), but I think that from a "who is the greatest?" perspective, the Sports Illustrated award on the subject (Sportsman/Sportsperson of the Year) has been prominent enough to essentially co-opt the term.

I'm inclined to follow your approach and focus on what we find to be admirable, but if we're making it a competition, then I do think competitive dominance has to loom large.

Re: dedication, loyalty, flair, influence. Yup, all those things seem relevant to me.

2. When it comes to basketball, I'd say we're pretty fortunate here because we have someone who to me is the clear cut choice:

Bill Russell

Most dominant player ever, possibly most influential player ever, civil rights icon, insightful author.

A key thing here that I don't think we can shy away from: The sport becomes Black-dominated with Russell's arrival. While Russell wasn't the first Black player who could be argued to have been the best basketball player in the world (Tarzan Cooper in the '30s), the basketball world wasn't dominated by a single league until after World War II, and those leagues remained dominated by white players until Russell. (It is worth noting that resistance to handing the reins over to Black players existed, and Russell's path to domination notably allowed a small white guy to chuck the ball to his heart's content. This is probably not a coincidence.)

I could list a bunch of other players that are worth celebrating on this front, just not up there with Russell, but I want to specifically single out someone outside of the NBA:

Maya Moore

If you're like I was until recently, you see Moore the player as one of the many MVPs in WNBA history. I'd like to emphasize that it really does seem likely to me that Moore was considerably better at basketball than any other player in WNBA history. Her +/- data is really quite insane, and despite the MVP, I think she got drastically underrated.

When she arrived into the league, she took a team that had been perpetually bad and immediately led them to the championship leading the entire league in +/-, which she would do as a matter of course over her career. But early on, there was reluctance to see her as the clear-cut star of her team, and more annoyingly, in her last years, there was a mass delusion that another player on her team (Sylvia Fowles) was the best on the team and was actually given MVP of the league despite being nowhere near as valuable as Moore.

And then there's the whole thing where she retired early to focus on getting an innocent man out of prison, and she succeeded. Now, she did end up marrying that man, so make of that what you will, but in a very real sense, Moore can be seen as the Muhammed Ali of the 21st century more so than any other athlete I'm aware of.