RealGM

This camr up in another thread about how even outsifr being usually seen as a goat level off-ball offensive player, curry may be a top 5 on-ball offensive player for the last 25 years

The names i have over him on that

Steve nash
Lebron james
Gap
Chris paul
James harden
Dwayne wade
Nikola jokic

Agree or disagree?

I think ,purely on-ball, players like peak westbrook and luka are also interesting darkhorses as their outlier on-ball creation is likely superior to curry and made them wildly impactful with the ball in their hands (albeit not in defense or without the ball)

They just happen/happened to be bad on defense and do nothingh off-ball

Is Curry the GOAT off-ball offensive player though? If he plays more on-ball than other offensive all-timers like Jordan or Shaq, how could his off-ball play be better than them as well? Or is off-ball pure and alone about catch and shoot 3s now?

Dutchball97 wrote:Is Curry the GOAT off-ball offensive player though? If he plays more on-ball than other offensive all-timers like Jordan or Shaq, how could his off-ball play be better than them as well? Or is off-ball pure and alone about catch and shoot 3s now?

Fair question, shaq and jordan also did a lot of their damage in offense without handling the ball a ton

Most people generallly pick curry for this but is far from a given either, edited the question there

Dutchball97 wrote:Is Curry the GOAT off-ball offensive player though? If he plays more on-ball than other offensive all-timers like Jordan or Shaq, how could his off-ball play be better than them as well? Or is off-ball pure and alone about catch and shoot 3s now?

It is something of a sliding scale as to how we define “on” versus “off”, but if we want to restrict it solely to how they act as scorers: Jordan is better at anchoring a top tier scoring load than Curry, and in the playoffs perhaps that can manifest as other scorers on the team decline worse, but I would rather have Curry next to other scorers than I would Jordan because he has a stronger gravity effect. A lot of room in how you weigh those against each other.

Adding in Shaq is a fun wrinkle with the trio. Less sure about that, especially because it would partially be positional relative (e.g. Shaq automatically gets the attention of any team’s frontcourt).

I don't know about the last 25 years, but I am not sure I'd have him as top 10 ever, let alone top 5.

70sFan wrote:I don't know about the last 25 years, but I am not sure I'd have him as top 10 ever, let alone top 5.

Who would be your top 10 ever on-ball players?

5-10, closer to 5 I think?

Nash and LeBron obviously, also Jokic, maybe Wade, Harden, Kobe, Paul? Westbrook?

Hmm, does Curry get appreciably worse by playing more on ball? He’s still going to draw a lot of the same gravity, and still be a pretty good distributor. His motor may fall short of some other guys I get that much. It definitely has me thinking though.

I think it's telling that Warriors late game crunch time offense is extremely PNR heavy. The threat of his deep pull up alone means you pretty much have to double beyond the 3 point line or let him go off like Udoka did in the Finals

No-more-rings wrote:Hmm, does Curry get appreciably worse by playing more on ball? He’s still going to draw a lot of the same gravity, and still be a pretty good distributor. His motor may fall short of some other guys I get that much. It definitely has me thinking though.

Might depend on how strict we are with telling Curry to remove all off-ball elements of his game lol. Boosted Lillard is generally my interpretation, which is still a pretty excellent player but not quite that “easy top five all-time offensive weapon” he is otherwise.

parsnips33 wrote:I think it's telling that Warriors late game crunch time offense is extremely PNR heavy. The threat of his deep pull up alone means you pretty much have to double beyond the 3 point line or let him go off like Udoka did in the Finals

Complex offense breaks down more in late game situations as players are more mentally and physically tired

Not sure if its by choice as much as its by necessity

Cause if kerr thought their best offense is curry pick and roll spam, it would be weird to use it sparely and mostly just in late game situations

AEnigma wrote:

No-more-rings wrote:Hmm, does Curry get appreciably worse by playing more on ball? He’s still going to draw a lot of the same gravity, and still be a pretty good distributor. His motor may fall short of some other guys I get that much. It definitely has me thinking though.

Might depend on how strict we are with telling Curry to remove all off-ball elements of his game lol. Boosted Lillard is generally my interpretation, which is still a pretty excellent player but not quite that “easy top five all-time offensive weapon” he is otherwise.

His impact becomes a bit worse, but I don’t think I can agree that he’s now worse than guys like Wade or Cp3 offensively.

falcolombardi wrote:

70sFan wrote:I don't know about the last 25 years, but I am not sure I'd have him as top 10 ever, let alone top 5.

Who would be your top 10 ever on-ball players?

Probably something like this without thinking too much on that:

Magic Johnson
Jerry West
Oscar Robertson
Steve Nash
Chris Paul
Michael Jordan
Kobe Bryant
Dwyane Wade
James Harden
LeBron James
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

falcolombardi wrote:

parsnips33 wrote:I think it's telling that Warriors late game crunch time offense is extremely PNR heavy. The threat of his deep pull up alone means you pretty much have to double beyond the 3 point line or let him go off like Udoka did in the Finals

Complex offense breaks down more in late game situations as players are more mentally and physically tired

Not sure if its by choice as much as its by necessity

Cause if kerr thought their best offense is curry pick and roll spam, it would be weird to use it sparely and mostly just in late game situations

I mean it's always ranked extremely high in terms of points per possession - if my memory serves me correctly. Whether the roll man is Draymond or Looney now.

I just think Kerr values a diversified offense, and I think the motion heavy off-ball offense serves Klay and the rest of the typical Warriors personnel very well

[quote="parsnips33"][quote="falcolombardi"][quote="parsnips33"]I think it's telling that Warriors late game crunch time offense is extremely PNR heavy. The threat of his deep pull up alone means you pretty much have to double beyond the 3 point line or let him go off like Udoka did in the Finals[/quote]

Complex offense breaks down more in late game situations as players are more mentally and physically tired

Not sure if its by choice as much as its by necessity

Cause if kerr thought their best offense is curry pick and roll spam, it would be weird to use it sparely and mostly just in late game situations[/quote]

I mean it's always ranked extremely high in terms of points per possession - if my memory serves me correctly. Whether the roll man is Draymond or Looney now.

I just think Kerr values a diversified offense, and I think the motion heavy off-ball offense serves Klay and the rest of the typical Warriors personnel very well[/quote]

Yep, this is something warriors fans have disagreed with Kerr about for years now. A lot of them want Steph on ball more and spamming PnR's Kerr even addressed it in an interview years ago. He likes the motion offense and want's it to stay that way even when all the metrics point to the Warriors ppp in PnR being elite. There's even a dude on twitter with a decent following named "onballsteph" who used to argue this all the time

parsnips33 wrote:I think it's telling that Warriors late game crunch time offense is extremely PNR heavy. The threat of his deep pull up alone means you pretty much have to double beyond the 3 point line or let him go off like Udoka did in the Finals

Right--the lower variance offense is what just about everyone does in late game situations. Its a reason isolation is so common in late game situations--the opportunity cost of a turnover or potential fast break opportunity for your opponent is detrimental.

The team who is always top 5 in turnovers [Warriors] aren't going to spam their typically offense in late game situations and rightfully so.

Colbinii wrote:

parsnips33 wrote:I think it's telling that Warriors late game crunch time offense is extremely PNR heavy. The threat of his deep pull up alone means you pretty much have to double beyond the 3 point line or let him go off like Udoka did in the Finals

Right--the lower variance offense is what just about everyone does in late game situations. Its a reason isolation is so common in late game situations--the opportunity cost of a turnover or potential fast break opportunity for your opponent is detrimental.

The team who is always top 5 in turnovers [Warriors] aren't going to spam their typically offense in late game situations and rightfully so.

Well yeah that and nobody can guard Steph in PNR without basically sending 2 guys to trap 30 feet from the basket

itsxtray wrote:

parsnips33 wrote:

falcolombardi wrote:
Complex offense breaks down more in late game situations as players are more mentally and physically tired

Not sure if its by choice as much as its by necessity

Cause if kerr thought their best offense is curry pick and roll spam, it would be weird to use it sparely and mostly just in late game situations

I mean it's always ranked extremely high in terms of points per possession - if my memory serves me correctly. Whether the roll man is Draymond or Looney now.

I just think Kerr values a diversified offense, and I think the motion heavy off-ball offense serves Klay and the rest of the typical Warriors personnel very well

Yep, this is something warriors fans have disagreed with Kerr about for years now. A lot of them want Steph on ball more and spamming PnR's Kerr even addressed it in an interview years ago. He likes the motion offense and want's it to stay that way even when all the metrics point to the Warriors ppp in PnR being elite. There's even a dude on twitter with a decent following named "onballsteph" who used to argue this all the time

It is likely about health/load management for Curry. They have not tended to NEED him to be spamming on-ball sets in volume outside of the later playoff matchups, so why put extra wear on his body when he could move away from the action and use the threat of his range, right?

tsherkin wrote:

itsxtray wrote:

parsnips33 wrote:
I mean it's always ranked extremely high in terms of points per possession - if my memory serves me correctly. Whether the roll man is Draymond or Looney now.

I just think Kerr values a diversified offense, and I think the motion heavy off-ball offense serves Klay and the rest of the typical Warriors personnel very well

Yep, this is something warriors fans have disagreed with Kerr about for years now. A lot of them want Steph on ball more and spamming PnR's Kerr even addressed it in an interview years ago. He likes the motion offense and want's it to stay that way even when all the metrics point to the Warriors ppp in PnR being elite. There's even a dude on twitter with a decent following named "onballsteph" who used to argue this all the time

It is likely about health/load management for Curry. They have not tended to NEED him to be spamming on-ball sets in volume outside of the later playoff matchups, so why put extra wear on his body when he could move away from the action and use the threat of his range, right?

See I don't know if I buy that, he has to move a TON more in the Steph off-ball sets. And it's not like defenders don't guard him very physically even without the ball

parsnips33 wrote:See I don't know if I buy that, he has to move a TON more in the Steph off-ball sets. And it's not like defenders don't guard him very physically even without the ball

I know what you mean. But he doesn't always bump when he's moving off-ball, and there's much more contact around an on-ball screen and certainly finishing in the paint. That said, he's also an exceptional mid-range scorer, so he can off use the space to get off a relatively clean look because of the overplay guarding his 3, so I don't know. It's an interesting thought to entertain.

Either way, it doesn't really bother the Warriors offense. He spams PnR as required, but they don't need him to do it on a higher volume of possessions regardless. Defense is much more their issue at present and they haven't suffered for him not playing more on-ball.