Better in the Post: Shaq or Kareem?

[ShaqAttac]

people say theyre the two best post players but whose bestest

[70sFan]

If you ask strictly about offense, then I don't see any case for Shaq to be honest.

[Outside]

My initial thought was Kareem, but when you consider free throws, it's definitely Kareem. The ability to convert FTs is a crucial element of post offense. In Shaq's case, opponents would foul him as a strategy because he was so bad at it, and his inability to make FTs would sometimes result in him deferring to others in crunch time. A few relevant career stats:

RS FG% - Shaq 58.2, Kareem 55.9
PS FG% - Shaq 56.3, Kareem 53.3

RS FT% - Shaq 52.7, Kareem 72.1
PS FT% - Shaq 50.4, Kareem 74.0

RS FT rate (number of FTA per FGA) - Shaq .578, Kareem .329
PS FT rate - Shaq .639, Kareem .321

Not that Kareem was a great FT shooter, but he was good enough that the issues with Shaq were never issues with Kareem. Putting Shaq on the line was a smart move, but it was a poor percentage play with Kareem.

[prolific passer]

people say theyre the two best post players but whose bestest

2 best? Hakeem and McHale say sup.

[Cavsfansince84]

With Shaq it depends a lot on how much leeway he gets. In his peak era he got a lot. So if we want to use portability in the least as a criteria its Kareem by a lot. Relevant to era I'd still say Kareem by a bit(more so if we factor in ft shooting). Shaq's moves from beyond 5-6 ft get underrated quite a bit though imo because he didn't always need to run guys over to score. He had great touch.

[70sFan]

With Shaq it depends a lot on how much leeway he gets. In his peak era he got a lot. So if we want to use portability in the least as a criteria its Kareem by a lot. Relevant to era I'd still say Kareem by a bit(more so if we factor in ft shooting). Shaq's moves from beyond 5-6 ft get underrated quite a bit though imo because he didn't always need to run guys over to score. He had great touch.

I agree that people underrate Shaq's moves from beyond 5-6 feet, he took a lot of hooks, turnarounds and leaners. He had also outstanding footwork for his size, simply amazing. That said, his touch wasn't great, he didn't convert them at efficient rate.

[Cavsfansince84]

I agree that people underrate Shaq's moves from beyond 5-6 feet, he took a lot of hooks, turnarounds and leaners. He had also outstanding footwork for his size, simply amazing. That said, his touch wasn't great, he didn't convert them at efficient rate.

Well the touch is more closer to the basket. Like being able to just put the ball in the basket while moving his body. Much like Moses. Some big men can do that and others can't. It's a soft touch with the wrist. Shaq had very good touch imo.

[70sFan]

I agree that people underrate Shaq's moves from beyond 5-6 feet, he took a lot of hooks, turnarounds and leaners. He had also outstanding footwork for his size, simply amazing. That said, his touch wasn't great, he didn't convert them at efficient rate.

Well the touch is more closer to the basket. Like being able to just put the ball in the basket while moving his body. Much like Moses. Some big men can do that and others can't. It's a soft touch with the wrist. Shaq had very good touch imo.

Yeah, I agree with that. Moses in general had a good shooting touch, but I get the comparison. Zion is similar in this regard.

[VanWest82]

Kareem's play making out the post is what puts him over the top for me. He had such long arms to reach over or around guys passing out of the double. And yes, if we include FTs it's not close (though I don't know why we would).

[capfan33]

Kareem, honestly Shaq is probably at best 4th if we're talking pure post play. A lot of Shaq's value comes from off the ball. Kareem, Hakeem, McHale and Wilt (relative to era) are all probably better. Barkley might be better honestly but I don't know as much about him.

[tsherkin]

I'd say Shaq.

Love me some Kareem, and I particularly appreciate his ability to broaden his range of efficacy. But Shaq was far better at exerting foul pressure and getting to higher-percentage shots. Really, you couldn't go wrong with either, but if we're being particular, Shaq's physical tools made him more reliable, even accounting for his FT issues.

[70sFan]

I'd say Shaq.

Love me some Kareem, and I particularly appreciate his ability to broaden his range of efficacy. But Shaq was far better at exerting foul pressure and getting to higher-percentage shots. Really, you couldn't go wrong with either, but if we're being particular, Shaq's physical tools made him more reliable, even accounting for his FT issues.

I think we have this discussion before, it depends on how you want to define "post game". If you want to include all putbacks and garbage points, then Shaq was a better finisher and rebounder than Kareem and it helped him creating high percentage shots. If we focus more strictly on post game (establishing deep position and trying to score/create from that position), then it's not true - Kareem generated roughly as many "easy shots" as Shaq, while converting harder ones at significantly better efficiency. Despite what people think, Shaq didn't really have that many dunks and layups out of the post - even including all lobs he got from overplays etc.

[HeartBreakKid]

I'd say Kareem. He was more effective from more sections of the post, not just marginally effective but incredibly good from most areas. Right under the rim he's not as good as a finisher as Shaq but we're talking two omega long guys, they're scoring if they're given the ball and they're that deep already.

[70sFan]

For context:

Shaq's scoring efficiency was heavily driven by putbacks and inside finishes. It could be seen both as advantage as disadvantage. On one hand, he's amazing at creating easy shots - better than Kareem. On the other, he's far more limited as a creator with the ball in his hands. Take a look at their post game numbers I tracked throughout the last year:

- 1971-79 Kareem (33 games): 21.8 ppg on 52.8 FG% and 57.1 TS%
- 2000-01 Shaq (38 games): 17.8 ppg on 49.3 FG% and 49.8 TS%

I think samples are decently representative for both. Again, it's up to you if you prefer Shaq's ability to generate easy points, or Kareem's ability to finish tough shots no matter what. I think what Kareem gives you brings a bit more value and is less teammates depended. We really haven't seen prime Shaq in a bad situation and I don't think he'd be able to carry his team to the same degree Kareem did. We also have seen Kareem in great situations (let's say in 1971 and 1980) and he showed ridiculous value, despite probably not being at his peak anymore.

[tsherkin]

I think we have this discussion before, it depends on how you want to define "post game". If you want to include all putbacks and garbage points, then Shaq was a better finisher and rebounder than Kareem and it helped him creating high percentage shots. If we focus more strictly on post game (establishing deep position and trying to score/create from that position), then it's not true - Kareem generated roughly as many "easy shots" as Shaq, while converting harder ones at significantly better efficiency. Despite what people think, Shaq didn't really have that many dunks and layups out of the post - even including all lobs he got from overplays etc.

I see what you mean. There's a reason I equivocated some, but I prefer Shaq. Kareem wasn't very good at applying foul pressure past his first couple seasons relative to Shaq, and O'neal was a higher-FG% player for a reason. You can argue finesse versus power, and that's fine; Kareem clearly had more range, better touch at the line and so forth. But Shaq did what he needed to, and there were reasons he led the league in FG% nine times. They were both very good in transition. Shaq was an exceptional off-ball mover. Kareem was very good at that too, but of course not quite as good at getting in low because he had a higher center of gravity and was more content in those more mid-range zones because of the quality of his skyhook and short jumper. Kind of 6 of one, half a dozen of the other in terms of how well they finished shots in the end, though.

Meantime, Shaq typically dunked like 15-20% of his FGMs until his later years when it spiked on Miami with Wade. As you say, how you choose to evaluate this depends a lot on the semantics of what you include. I can't think of a good reason to ignore offensive rebounding and in-close finishing because I don't favor finesse aesthetics over efficacy. But from a strict perspective of shooting ability, Kareem obviously had better touch. More of a left hand, more range, better proficiency at the FT line. There's no question. The real question to me is does that matter? And in-game, not so much, because you don't get extra points for it being pretty, though you do get extra potential points at the foul line and despite his FT%, Shaq actually made more FT/g than Kareem did on average over the length of his career (around +0.6 per game) and shot 33% more attempts per game as well. That adds up.

A fun topic, though, because there are a couple of different ways to approach it. It's not like we're talking about Tyson Chandler versus Al Jefferson or something like that, nor like we are discussing Jokic/Embiid versus like Nik Vucevic or whatever. Kareem was a beast and a pleasure to watch, so the details of the comparison ultimately dictate a lot.

[70sFan]

I see what you mean. There's a reason I equivocated some, but I prefer Shaq. Kareem wasn't very good at applying foul pressure past his first couple seasons relative to Shaq, and O'neal was a higher-FG% player for a reason. You can argue finesse versus power, and that's fine; Kareem clearly had more range, better touch at the line and so forth. But Shaq did what he needed to, and there were reasons he led the league in FG% nine times. They were both very good in transition. Shaq was an exceptional off-ball mover. Kareem was very good at that too, but of course not quite as good at getting in low because he had a higher center of gravity and was more content in those more mid-range zones because of the quality of his skyhook and short jumper. Kind of 6 of one, half a dozen of the other in terms of how well they finished shots in the end, though.

Meantime, Shaq typically dunked like 15-20% of his FGMs until his later years when it spiked on Miami with Wade. As you say, how you choose to evaluate this depends a lot on the semantics of what you include. I can't think of a good reason to ignore offensive rebounding and in-close finishing because I don't favor finesse aesthetics over efficacy. But from a strict perspective of shooting ability, Kareem obviously had better touch. More of a left hand, more range, better proficiency at the FT line. There's no question. The real question to me is does that matter? And in-game, not so much, because you don't get extra points for it being pretty, though you do get extra potential points at the foul line and despite his FT%, Shaq actually made more FT/g than Kareem did on average over the length of his career (around +0.6 per game) and shot 33% more attempts per game as well. That adds up.

A fun topic, though, because there are a couple of different ways to approach it. It's not like we're talking about Tyson Chandler versus Al Jefferson or something like that, nor like we are discussing Jokic/Embiid versus like Nik Vucevic or whatever. Kareem was a beast and a pleasure to watch, so the details of the comparison ultimately dictate a lot.

I want to be very clear here - my choice isn't related to aestic argument, I really don't care about it. What I care about is efficiency and Kareem was just significantly more efficient in post up situations. You talk about FG% advantage for Shaq, but as I said - during my tracking work I concluded that Shaq wasn't really more efficient as a post up scorer, even without including FTs. I know you talk about Shaq creating easy shots, but most of them were not really created by him. Most of Shaq's easy points came from other players creating for him. I made a simple breakdown of Shaq's scoring attempts and here are the results:

Post up: 62% of FGM, 72% of FGA, 49 FG%
Putbacks: 19% of FGM,14% of FGA, 74 FG%
P&Rs: 4% of FGM, 2% of FGA, 89.0 FG% (small sample)
Transition: 6% of FGM, 4% of FGA, 97 FG% (small sample)
Cuts and garbage points: 8% of FGM, 6% of FGA, 80 FG%

As you can see, Shaq thrived as a finisher but he wasn't particulary efficient shot creator. Now, comparing to Kareem:

Post up: 65% of FGM, 68% of FGA, 53 FG%
Putbacks: 18% of FGM,14% of FGA, 70 FG%
P&Rs: 3% of FGM, 3% of FGA, 56 FG% (small sample)
Transition: 5% of FGM, 4% of FGA, 67 FG% (small sample)
Cuts and garbage points: 4% of FGM, 4% of FGA, 57 FG%

Note that the sample isn't 100% representative for offensive rebounding, as Kareem grabbed way more offensive rebounds than on average.

Shaq was more efficient from the field, but it wasn't because he was a better post player. He was better finisher from non-creation plays - even excluding putbacks.

For comparison, here is 1979-83 Moses:

Post up: 47% of FGM, 51% of FGA, 47 FG%
Putbacks: 23% of FGM,22% of FGA, 54 FG%
P&Rs: 1% of FGM, 1% of FGA, 38 FG% (small sample)
Transition: 10% of FGM, 6% of FGA, 82 FG%
Cuts and garbage points: 11% of FGM, 8% of FGA, 69 FG%

I can also include fouls drawn if you wish to get full scoring attempts for Kareem and Shaq.

[tsherkin]

I want to be very clear here - my choice isn't related to aestic argument, I really don't care about it. What I care about is efficiency and Kareem was just significantly more efficient in post up situations. You talk about FG% advantage for Shaq, but as I said - during my tracking work I concluded that Shaq wasn't really more efficient as a post up scorer, even without including FTs. I know you talk about Shaq creating easy shots, but most of them were not really created by him. Most of Shaq's easy points came from other players creating for him. I made a simple breakdown of Shaq's scoring attempts and here are the results:

You're circling around a point I made: there is a semantic division here between what we are saying. You are choosing to define "post play" as only "post isolation," where I acknowledge that you have a point. There is space, however, to consider all elements of play which occurs in the post, and Shaq did a bunch of those things better than Kareem which contributed to what I was discussing. One of the things which he did better was moving without the ball. That matters. It's often the difference between a good big and a weaker one. That was kind of the thrust of my point. The OP doesn't really specify if we're speaking strictly of isolation scoring or total value in the post, so I leaned towards the latter.

[70sFan]

I want to be very clear here - my choice isn't related to aestic argument, I really don't care about it. What I care about is efficiency and Kareem was just significantly more efficient in post up situations. You talk about FG% advantage for Shaq, but as I said - during my tracking work I concluded that Shaq wasn't really more efficient as a post up scorer, even without including FTs. I know you talk about Shaq creating easy shots, but most of them were not really created by him. Most of Shaq's easy points came from other players creating for him. I made a simple breakdown of Shaq's scoring attempts and here are the results:

You're circling around a point I made: there is a semantic division here between what we are saying. You are choosing to define "post play" as only "post isolation," where I acknowledge that you have a point. There is space, however, to consider all elements of play which occurs in the post, and Shaq did a bunch of those things better than Kareem which contributed to what I was discussing. One of the things which he did better was moving without the ball. That matters. It's often the difference between a good big and a weaker one. That was kind of the thrust of my point. The OP doesn't really specify if we're speaking strictly of isolation scoring or total value in the post, so I leaned towards the latter.

My numbers include off-ball movement and deep position establishments. I only separated post play from putbacks, transition points, cuts and open layups created from someone else than Shaq. My numbers are not only isolation attempts, but things like finishing lobs after overplays or deep catches are included. Shaq didn't create much more such shots than Kareem, I think you exaggarate the difference here.

[tsherkin]

My numbers include off-ball movement and deep position establishments. I only separated post play from putbacks, transition points, cuts and open layups created from someone else than Shaq. My numbers are not only isolation attempts, but things like finishing lobs after overplays or deep catches are included. Shaq didn't create much more such shots than Kareem, I think you exaggarate the difference here.

I saw your numbers. Shaq's off-ball efficacy was higher, there was an expected gap in post-up FG%, and in putback FG%. A larger proportion of off-ball stuff, neither was much of a PnR guy and Shaq was more effective over a small sample in transition. They didn't illustrate anything which we haven't already generally agreed upon.

I'm not exaggerating the difference here. I have spent almost the entire time talking about Shaq's offensive rebounding, off-ball action and foul pressure as opposed to the other areas where Kareem excelled, and suggesting that while you could easily take either of them, I prefer Shaq and think of him as slightly more effective for those reasons.

[70sFan]

My numbers include off-ball movement and deep position establishments. I only separated post play from putbacks, transition points, cuts and open layups created from someone else than Shaq. My numbers are not only isolation attempts, but things like finishing lobs after overplays or deep catches are included. Shaq didn't create much more such shots than Kareem, I think you exaggarate the difference here.

I saw your numbers. Shaq's off-ball efficacy was higher, there was an expected gap in post-up FG%, and in putback FG%. A larger proportion of off-ball stuff, neither was much of a PnR guy and Shaq was more effective over a small sample in transition. They didn't illustrate anything which we haven't already generally agreed upon.

I'm not exaggerating the difference here. I have spent almost the entire time talking about Shaq's offensive rebounding, off-ball action and foul pressure as opposed to the other areas where Kareem excelled, and suggesting that while you could easily take either of them, I prefer Shaq and think of him as slightly more effective for those reasons.

My point is that Shaq's off-ball action is basically strictly related to offensive rebounding, he didn't create much more easy points off-ball than Kareem did.

I agree that offensive rebounding and foul pressure are good reasons to pick Shaq over Kareem. I don't agree it's enough, but it is a strong argument for Shaq. I just think that we need to be very specific about what we're talking about, because most people don't share your definition of "post game" and when you say that Shaq is a better post player, we need to specify what we're talking about. In terms of the casual understanding of "post game", Kareem crushes Shaq.