Portability: Jokic or Doncic?

[1993Playoffs]

Not who’s better but who is more portable? Was reading a discussion and Jokic’s limitations defensively at his position or Luka’s ball dominance What would affect a team less in different lineups

[Cavsfansince84]

After what Jokic showed last year he is more portable imo. Overall I also prefer his style of play.

[PistolPeteJR]

Agreed. I think Jokic, by virtue of his better shooting and his quick quarterbacking in the high post at his size, plus his size being a hindrance in the paint even though he’s no defensive anchor results in him being more portable than Doncic. Also, Luka has yet to show much offball prowess.

[tsherkin]

I don't think there is a pro-Doncic argument here. How much that matters is up for debate, as I think portability is very much overrated but yeah.

[AEnigma]

Not who’s better but who is more portable? Was reading a discussion and Jokic’s limitations defensively at his position or Luka’s ball dominance What would affect a team less in different lineups

Jokic is “defensively unportable” in the sense that he cannot really be played with an elite rim protecting centre and because of his own limitations that creates a perpetual team weakness. For team-building there is a conceivable argument that makes him more a restrictive foundational piece than Doncic, but I am not sure that the usual definitions of “portability” would fit that use of restrictive. You are not getting immediate diminishing returns with Jokic so much as you are getting a harder cap on your defensive potential.

[Colbinii]

I don't think there is a pro-Doncic argument here. How much that matters is up for debate, as I think portability is very much overrated but yeah.

Nice to see someone else downplaying the term portability.

The term portability is a flashy term typically used to slander certain players who typically fit a more ball-dominant role. What we have actually seen with ball-dominant or on-ball effective players sharing the court together [CP3/Harden, LeBron/Wade, LeBron/Kyrie, Harden/Kyrie] is terrific results as the main strength of all these players is a combination of 99% Percentile basketball skill with a deep understanding of the game at a high level and how to leverage themselves on a basketball court to be ultra-productive, regardless of the circumstances.

[ShaqAttac]

Not who’s better but who is more portable? Was reading a discussion and Jokic’s limitations defensively at his position or Luka’s ball dominance What would affect a team less in different lineups

Jokic is “defensively unportable” in the sense that he cannot really be played with an elite rim protecting centre and because of his own limitations that creates a perpetual team weakness. For team-building there is a conceivable argument that makes him more a restrictive foundational piece than Doncic, but I am not sure that the usual definitions of “portability” would fit that use of restrictive. You are not getting immediate diminishing returns with Jokic so much as you are getting a harder cap on your defensive potential.

why cant he play with an elite rim center

[AEnigma]

Not who’s better but who is more portable? Was reading a discussion and Jokic’s limitations defensively at his position or Luka’s ball dominance What would affect a team less in different lineups

Jokic is “defensively unportable” in the sense that he cannot really be played with an elite rim protecting centre and because of his own limitations that creates a perpetual team weakness. For team-building there is a conceivable argument that makes him more a restrictive foundational piece than Doncic, but I am not sure that the usual definitions of “portability” would fit that use of restrictive. You are not getting immediate diminishing returns with Jokic so much as you are getting a harder cap on your defensive potential.

why cant he play with an elite rim center

It would force him to the perimetre, which is not a particular strength of his and as we are seeing with the Timberwolves can create a lot of stylistic clashes. Those types of centres also often have poor range so they are disruptive of offence in a similar way that Jokic would be disruptive on defence.

Pairing him with someone like Turner or Brook could be kind-of interesting in theory, but in any case it is almost aways going to be clunky and still likely lower the team’s real defensive ceiling compared to running Luka with a dedicated defensive frontcourt.

[Ryoga Hibiki]

It would force him to the perimetre, which is not a particular strength of his and as we are seeing with the Timberwolves can create a lot of stylistic clashes. Those types of centres also often have poor range so they are disruptive of offence in a similar way that Jokic would be disruptive on defence.

The difference is that, unlike Towns, Jokic's game can blend perfectly with anybody on offence, including someone like Gobert.
The giant gap in passing would allow more creativity in using him and would give tons of easy baskets to Rudy, baskets he's not seeing today.

[Ryoga Hibiki]

Jokic is in my opinion the most portable offensive superstar ever, he can really fit next to anybody.
The defense part is complicated, though, because you should build your team to protect him and you would have a a limited level of scheme versatility.

[1993Playoffs]

Not who’s better but who is more portable? Was reading a discussion and Jokic’s limitations defensively at his position or Luka’s ball dominance What would affect a team less in different lineups

Jokic is “defensively unportable” in the sense that he cannot really be played with an elite rim protecting centre and because of his own limitations that creates a perpetual team weakness. For team-building there is a conceivable argument that makes him more a restrictive foundational piece than Doncic, but I am not sure that the usual definitions of “portability” would fit that use of restrictive. You are not getting immediate diminishing returns with Jokic so much as you are getting a harder cap on your defensive potential.

It’s interesting because as bad as Luka is on Defense it doesn’t limit a team a team as much because he’s a perimeter player. Like you said for all of Jokic’s brilliance on offense he may actually be less portable due to his position. I’m not sure where I land on this

[Texas Chuck]

Portability is a stupid concept created to support agendas.

Jokic is the better player so more teams would benefit from having him. This just isn't that hard.

[Ryoga Hibiki]

Portability is a stupid concept created to support agendas.

Jokic is the better player so more teams would benefit from having him. This just isn't that hard.

the concept makes a lot of sense, it just can be used in a stupid way.

[Texas Chuck]

Portability is a stupid concept created to support agendas.

Jokic is the better player so more teams would benefit from having him. This just isn't that hard.

the concept makes a lot of sense, it just can be used in a stupid way.

It really doesn't. Like take for instance this thread. Let's say I'm the current day Timberwolves employing both Towns and Gobert. Is the team better if I add Jokic? Yep. And because other transactions are allowed in the real world I could re-balance my roster so as to not have so many resources invested in 3 centers.

But you want the best players. And people always mistake versatility for portability which is beyond foolish. But hey it got a bunch of people here to rank KG among the top 10, top 5, top 3, and at least one guy to have him as their GOAT. Because middle linebacker and spacing/passing.

When in real life we know that adding Lebron James would improve teams more than adding KG, but ball dominant so some would suggest otherwise.

It's a bad concept. And it was brought here for one specific purpose for one specific player that is beloved. We need to be honest about that.

[eminence]

We get it Chuck, you hate KG.

[Lou Fan]

Portability is a stupid concept created to support agendas.

Jokic is the better player so more teams would benefit from having him. This just isn't that hard.

You don't have to like portability but to say people are only using it because they're being dishonest is wrong and a much more obvious indicator of bias. Do you really think Ben Taylor isn't intellectually honest about his basketball evaluations? You may think he's wrong but to say he's not doing them in earnest would be absolutely asinine.

[1993Playoffs]

Portability is a stupid concept created to support agendas.

Jokic is the better player so more teams would benefit from having him. This just isn't that hard.

Not if they are already a bad defensive team with weak rim protection?

[Texas Chuck]

Portability is a stupid concept created to support agendas.

Jokic is the better player so more teams would benefit from having him. This just isn't that hard.

You don't have to like portability but to say people are only using it because they're being dishonest is wrong and a much more obvious indicator of bias. Do you really think Ben Taylor isn't intellectually honest about his basketball evaluations? You may think he's wrong but to say he's not doing them in earnest would be absolutely asinine.

Uh I might know Ben Taylor better than you think I do. And I think he's smart as hell, communicates brilliantly, and yes, sometimes he works backwards to have his analysis match his pre-determined conclusion. And its basically impossible to miss this if you read his posts here back when he posted and when you listen to him on podcasts.

We have to stop letting this forum just become the Ben Taylor forum or what's the point of any of this?

Again, really smart dude, breaks down video(selective mind you) in a way that makes for compelling viewing, but not remotely above having his own biases and that infecting his work. He has them just as I do. And I'm assuming you do.

[Texas Chuck]

We get it Chuck, you hate KG.

Your determination to assign me positions is getting really annoying. I never run from any of my takes. But man do I not need you to invent them for me.

But for the hundredth? thousandth? time, I don't hate KG. I hate almost no players. I sports hate DWade, but am able to separate that out mostly(I never claim perfection)--nobody fights harder for him in the 06 Finals refusing to make that about the refs. I sports hate Kobe, or not even that really. I get annoyed with how his supporters talk about him. Derrick Rose is probably the closest to a guy I "hate" but I don't hate him either.

With KG, I like him fine. Helluva player. I just am not going to pretend that El Gee has no bias when it comes to him. Just like nobody should pretend I don't have one around Dirk. I know I don't.

[eminence]

I don't think there is a pro-Doncic argument here. How much that matters is up for debate, as I think portability is very much overrated but yeah.

Nice to see someone else downplaying the term portability.

The term portability is a flashy term typically used to slander certain players who typically fit a more ball-dominant role. What we have actually seen with ball-dominant or on-ball effective players sharing the court together [CP3/Harden, LeBron/Wade, LeBron/Kyrie, Harden/Kyrie] is terrific results as the main strength of all these players is a combination of 99% Percentile basketball skill with a deep understanding of the game at a high level and how to leverage themselves on a basketball court to be ultra-productive, regardless of the circumstances.

Calling the Harden/Kyrie results terrific seems a bit generous, lol.

+3.9 over 907 RS minutes (calculated from pbpstats.com)

Compared to:

+9.7 over 2100 minutes for CP3/Harden in HOU
+10.9 over 4922 minutes for LeBron/Kyrie in CLE
+12.7 over 6653 minutes for LeBron/Wade in MIA